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Jaldhar H. Vyas | 1 Oct 2011 04:34
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Re: Pitrupaksha questions

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011, Srikanta Narayanaswami wrote:

> As usual you are going away from the point.

You asked me what I thought was physical renunciation of nama-rupa.  I
gave the answer to that question.

> What I am saying is not about AShankara discussing karma,but pointing out 
> Jnana.Infact,a Jnanai that he is nothing is going to be gained and 
> everything is to gained for the hearer(sadhaka)the teaching of shankara 
> on 
> Jnana.

> Everyone knows about performance of karmas as they have been dealt 
> in the Purva mimamsa,on Karma rituals.

First of all, you are distorting the word karma by reducing it to rituals 
only.  The Vedas do mainly talk about rituals because they are karma par 
excellence and also in pre-modern times there was no distinction 
between sacred and secular.  But everything that is said about e.g. 
agnihotra or shraddha applies mutatis mutandis to every other volitional 
action you can think of.

Second no everyone doesn't know about performance of karma.  Members of 
this list come from various backgrounds.  Some have not gone through the 
traditional progression of study,  As Vedantins we strive for the welfare 
of all beings so we should try and help them out by filling in any gaps in 
their knowledge of correct action.  Others come to Vedantic ideas  for the
wrong reasons or with wrong notions.  To encourage such people (like 
Arjuna) in self-delusion is not friendly or helpful.
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Jaldhar H. Vyas | 1 Oct 2011 05:05
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Re: Pitrupaksha questions.

On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Srikanta Narayanaswami wrote:

> When you yourself is not performing why doyou bother about whether they 
> are performing or not.

I assume "you" in what you wrote refers to the GYAni not me personally. 
For the record, I try and perform all nitya and naimittika karmas 
diligently but I have no adhikAra yet for most pitR^ikArya as my father 
is still alive.

Anyway, why does a GYAni bother if other people are performing or not? 
Because he is not a heartless, selfish monster that's why.  If a Vedantin 
stood idly by as a little girl crossed the road and didn't warn her she 
was about to be hit by an oncoming bus we would not think very highly of 
him would we?  Well one who does not perform their ordained duty is about 
to be hit by the bus of paapa.  As swAmi abhinavavidyatIrtha said, only 
those with purity of mind attain GYAna.  One who is pure of mind and free 
from personal desires wants only the welfare of all living things.  He may 
not go around haranguing people to do their duty but if he is in a 
position to give advice he will tell them that it is in their best 
interests to do so.

> If any swamiji says that karmas must be performed,he is no longer a 
> sanyasi.

Next time you are in Shringeri, tell svAmi bhAratItIrtha that you think 
his guruji was not a sannyAsi and let us know what kind of reception you 
get.

> Because the B.G verse says: such a one will not ask others to
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 12:59
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Pitrupaksha questions

On Fri, 30 Sep 2011, Srikanta Narayanaswami wrote:

> When you yourself is not performing why doyou bother about whether they are performing or not.

I assume "you" in what you wrote refers to the GYAni not me personally. For the record, I try and perform all
nitya and naimittika karmas diligently but I have no adhikAra yet for most pitR^ikArya as my father is
still alive.

Anyway, why does a GYAni bother if other people are performing or not? Because he is not a heartless, selfish
monster that's why.  If a Vedantin stood idly by as a little girl crossed the road and didn't warn her she
was about to be hit by an oncoming bus we would not think very highly of him would we?  Well one who does not
perform their ordained duty is about to be hit by the bus of paapa.  As swAmi abhinavavidyatIrtha said,
only those with purity of mind attain GYAna.  One who is pure of mind and free from personal desires wants
only the welfare of all living things.  He may not go around haranguing people to do their duty but if he is
in a position to give advice he will tell them that it is in their best interests to do so.

> If any swamiji says that karmas must be performed,he is no longer a sanyasi.

Next time you are in Shringeri, tell svAmi bhAratItIrtha that you think his guruji was not a sannyAsi and let
us know what kind of reception you get.

> Because the B.G verse says: such a one will not ask others to perform karmas'Navadvarepure dehi naiva
kurvan nakarayan"Such a one who has completeunderstanding will not perform karmas and nor will he make it
perform by others,for he will be called a "Mithyachari".

Well well, so it seems it is not only Shri~Ngeri Jagadguru but KR^iShNa bhagavAn himself who doesn't
understand vedAnta at your august level.  For performing karma is exactly what he told Arjuna to do as has
already been pointed out.

-- Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar@...>
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 13:13
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Pitrupaksha questions.

On Wed, 28 Sep 2011, Srikanta Narayanaswami wrote:

> As usual you are going away from the point.

You asked me what I thought was physical renunciation of nama-rupa.  I
gave the answer to that question.

> What I am saying is not about AShankara discussing karma,but pointing out Jnana.Infact,a Jnanai that he
is nothing is going to be gained and everything is to gained for the hearer(sadhaka)the teaching of
shankara on Jnana.

> Everyone knows about performance of karmas as they have been dealt in the Purva mimamsa,on Karma rituals.

First of all, you are distorting the word karma by reducing it to rituals only.  The Vedas do mainly talk
about rituals because they are karma par excellence and also in pre-modern times there was no distinction
between sacred and secular.  But everything that is said about e.g. agnihotra or shraddha applies
mutatis mutandis to every other volitional action you can think of.

Second no everyone doesn't know about performance of karma.  Members of this list come from various
backgrounds.  Some have not gone through the traditional progression of study,  As Vedantins we
strive for the welfare of all beings so we should try and help them out by filling in any gaps in their
knowledge of correct action.  Others come to Vedantic ideas  for the
wrong reasons or with wrong notions.  To encourage such people (like Arjuna) in self-delusion is not
friendly or helpful.
_______________________________________________________________________________________
To Jaldhar Vyas
As usaul you have taken the role of an interpreter.Our views in the list is not for interpreting what is said
in the B.G and the shruthi,but to understand them properly in their right perspective.You are not only
interpreting according to your whims and fancies that karmas are not just rituals only.That job is done by
the Bhashyakaras like SriShankara.we canot snatch them because we claim that vedas in the premodern
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 13:20
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Pitrupaksha questions

I have known a householder Jnani who would not hesitate to skip the
performance of the shrAddha of his parents.  He was quite indifferent though
on occasions he did perform.  This 'erratic' behaviour Shankaracharya has
been sensitive to point out in the GitAbhAShya that I quoted recently: //
...or for the sake of avoiding the censure of the shiShTas the householder
Jnani would continue to engage in the ordained duties//
[कर्मण्यभिप्रवृत्तोऽपि].  The 'abhi' prefix makes
Shankara go to this
extent: the householder Jnani is very actively engaged in works.

On an occasion Sri Abhinava VidyAtirtha Swamiji made a public comment
referring to Sri.D.S.Subbaramaiya, a venerable Jnani, the author of the two
volume English book on Sri Dakshinamurti.  He was a brahmacharin, in his
seventies.  He was seated in the audience when the Acharya made this remark
in Kannada: // Our Sri Subbaramaiya is not in need of performing the sandhya
vandanam.  Yet he performs it devoutly, most regularly.  For, the tendency
of those in the house is this: 'When the elders themselves are not
performing the sandhya, etc. why should we?' and they would never care to
perform them.  In order to be a model for others he himself does not miss it
on any occasion.//

One is reminded of the 'yadyadAcharati shreShThaH tattadevetaro janaH. sa
yatpramANam kurute lokastadanuvartate' of the Gita 3.21. [ Sunil ji, you
have a point].
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
No scripture,no acharya can prohibit a seeker not to be a 'Jnananishta".If he does so then he himself
doesnot know about the place of Jnana in our vedic scriptures.As per your statement Sri D.S.Subbharamaih
who is a Brahmacharin must perform the sandhyavandanam.There is surprise in that.He is not a
householder.If he performs that in order to be an example to others to please them as well as the Swamiji,he
can be called a "mithyachari"as said by the Bhagawan.
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 13:36
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Pitrupaksha questions-On Lokasangraha

 
I think in our discussions we have lost sight of Lokasamgraha. The spirit of Lokasamgraha really comes from
the advaita jnana.All work of an advaitin is for Lokasamgraha. That also includes work for the advaitin
himself or herself as he or she is also not different from the others. The karma of Lokasamgraha is
compatible with Jnana. Lord krishna himself said that he does not need to work yet he does. Asking what he
does it for provides the clue. That mental purity comes only from Jnana.

Regards,

Sunil KB
________________________________________________________________________________________
The mention about Lokasangraha is only incidental(prasangika)by the Bhagavan.It is not necessary that a
Jnani has to work for Lokasangraha.It may be true in the ancient times.But,when fools are around who are
engulfed by ajnana(darkness)there is no point to work for Lokasangraha by the Jnanins.Upadeshohi
murkhanam prakopaya na shanthaye.
The BG on the state of a Jnani beautifully explains:
"Ya nisha sarvabhuthanam tasmat jagrathi samyami!
 yasmath  jagrathi bhuthanam sa nisha pashyate muneh!!"

When it is the nisha(night) for the other beings(ajnanis),the Jnani who is a "Samyami"is awake.When it is
wakefulness(day-which means their involvement in the loka vyavahara in ajnana)it is night for the Jnani.
This shows that the Jnani who is aware of the truth about the world is awake that means who has jnana,in his
samyama(equanimity).But,when all the other beings are involved in wordly activities or who are
ajnani,this state is darkness(nisha)for a Jnani.
This means a Jnani will not follow the mundane activities of the world,which is engulfed by Karma.
There were Jnanis in India.For example,SriRamana Mahrshi.He never went in search of
disciples(shishyas),for Lokasangraha.They came to him for knowing the Jnana.
N.Srikanta.
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 13:50
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Pitrupaksha questions

there is no pratyavaya incurred by its nonperformance"

This is true. 
Do you know if Sankara talks about what, if any, then is the effect of nonperformance of nitya karmas?

"The question is will the mere performance is enough or should it be with the realisation by Jnana as set
forth in the BG and Sri Shankara."

In Shankara's view is perfornance of any karma compatible with Jnana?

Finally, in your opinion, based on your thorough and erudite learning of Shankara, can you tell me if a
grhastha can continue to discharge his duties towards his family - earn a livelihood, own a house, have a
bankbalance - with the abiding nishta of Oneness in Brahman, and avoid nitya/naimittika karmas as they
serve him no end, and since mentally he is "akarta"?

Hari OM
Shyam
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Please read my posting on Jaldhar Vyas's question on the above topic.SriShankara Bhagawathpada doesnot
say one must perform karmas.But he focusses his writing on the Jnana part in his commentary on the B.G.
There are various verses by B.G on the importance of Jnana."Nahi jnanena sadrsham pavitramiha vidyate"
'Shraddhavan labhate jnanam"Verses which deride karmas are also found in B.G"doorena hyavaram
karma(karmas are inferior),"sarvakarmakhilam Partha jnane parisamapyate",Sarva karmani manasa sanyasya"
"Buddhau sharanam anvicca krpanah phalahetavah","Pratyavayaou na vidyate"'Sarva dharman parityajya
mamekam sharanam vraja aham tvam sarva papebhyo mokshayishyami ma shucah"Even if you are the worst of all
sinners,you will cross the ocean of samsara with the boat of Jnana".Sri Shankara Bhagawathpada also
comments on these verses highlighting the Jnana.He again and again reiterates that the
darkness(karmas)will not dispell another darkness.
As for as your question whether a grahastha can continue to discharge his duties towards his
family---etc.SriShankara Bhagawathpada answers beautifully in his Sashvatha
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 14:33
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Pitrupaksha questions.

> Mr.Vidya shankar,I take strong exception to what you have commented on my mother,s funeral.If you
>have seen exception priests then it is your lookout.You are free to feed them and give danas etc.and
>make them fat.But,that is beside the point.I would like to point out to you that there is not even an iota
>of dedication on the purohit class.If it is not so then what is the purpose of performing the obsequies
>on the part of the karta.You are just closing your eyes to what is being performed.It is not gifts wemust
>give to the Purohits,but its eficient and proper performance!

I am glad that you at least state that this is "beside the point" but you sir, again repeat the same
things that you have said before. I, too, performed my father's antya karmA fifteen years ago. Our
family's elderly purohita and his son performed it in an exemplary manner. Not once did they ask
me or my brother for additional dakshiNA, not once did they exhibit any lack of dedication. On the
contrary, they went out of their way to help us with every single detail. And let me assure you,
they are not fat, either through my feeding them or other kartA-s feeding them. As for gifts, please
remember, "dAnaM yajnAnAM varUthaM dakshiNA loke ... dAne sarvaM pratishThitaM tasmAd
dAnaM paramaM vadanti" (mahAnArAyaNopanishat, taittirIya).

In the USA, where I currently live, I have again come across sincere and dedicated professionals
of the purohita class. There are young and old purohita-s, even in this country, who do not check
their cell phones for text messages in the middle of a ritual and who do not demand exorbitant
dakshiNA from people. To date, I have not been asked for a specific amount of dollars before or
after any event, whether it is my father's annual SrAddha or my daughter's naming. Of course, I
am not saying that every single purohita in this world is of that caliber. What I am saying is that
there do exist purohita-s whose dedication and behavior are of the highest standards. Yes, there
are those too, who behave exactly in the opposite manner, but then, you as a kartA always have
the choice to shun those who are not up to standard. You do have the choice to approach only
those of whose dedication and expertise you can be confident.

Finally, whether or not a purohita is getting fat on the dAna and dakshiNA given by people is
completely irrelevant to the basic question of whether a given individual is ready to renounce ALL
karmA or whether he or she is still in need of developing citta-Suddhi through nishkAmya karmA.
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Shyam | 1 Oct 2011 14:34
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Re: Pitrupaksha questions

Pranams

I find you have completely avoided answers to all three questions. It will be helpful to keep your answers
direct and relevant to the question, so your point of view is decipherable.

Let me repeat my questions one at a time, in the hope that this time around your answers are direct and relevant.

Q.1

> there is no pratyavaya incurred by
> its nonperformance"
> 
> This is true. 
> Do you know if Sankara talks about what, if any, then is
> the effect of nonperformance of nitya karmas?
> 

Hari OM
Shyam

--- On Sat, 10/1/11, Srikanta Narayanaswami
<srikanta.narayanaswami@...> wrote:

> From: Srikanta Narayanaswami <srikanta.narayanaswami@...>
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Pitrupaksha questions
> To: "advaita-l@..." <advaita-l@...>
> Date: Saturday, October 1, 2011, 7:50 AM
> there is no pratyavaya incurred by
> its nonperformance"
>
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Srikanta Narayanaswami | 1 Oct 2011 14:39
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Pitrupaksha questions.

 I am seeing from your posting above,that you are repeating the same answers you are saying,

Unfortunately, Sri Srikantaji, this holds true more for you than for anyone else on the list! i.e.
repeating the same things that you have already said before.
 
 
>I would like to bring to your attention on a proper perspective. What I am saying is this:
> From the discussions that we find in the B.G and the commentary of Shankara(I hope you are following that.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
I have already answered  for   these statements in my posting.You are also a party to the repitition of
the same in your Emails.I see that there is not only repitition in your postings,but also futility in
understanding other's view points.We can only wake up a person who is sleeping,but not the one who
pretends to sleep as a well known Tamil saying goes!I want you to study more deply ansd sincerely the
scriptures and commentaries of SriShankara Bhagawathpada.
N.Srikanta.
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