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Sunil Bhattacharjya | 1 Nov 2010 01:14
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Re: Adwaita and God

Dear Srikantaji,

1)
Agreed that Sankhya did not say "Neti Neti" like the Vedanta says and we also know that   Sankhya said that
"Ishvara is asiddha", which rigorously speaking is different from "Neti Neti". Then will you kindly 
explain what do you understand by the saying that "Ishvara is asiddha" ie. the existence of Ishvara cannot
be proved. I was trying to be pedagogibal and  was sacrificing rigour to make the point understand that
Sankhya does not deny the existence of God. However if you can give a rigorous explanation of "Ishvara is
Asiddha';'  i shall be extremely grateful.
2)
PLease do not compare "Vaisheshika" with "Vedanta". You are speaking to the tune of the western  scholars
who think that the six systems of "Darshanas" are competing philosophies. The six systems of "Darshanas"
are at different levels of understanding. Sankhya is at a higher level of understanding than the
Nyaya-Vaisheshika. Similarly the Purvamimansa and Uttaramimansa are at higher levels that the
Sankhya. Nobody questions the highest level of Vedanta. My mail was trying to say that none of the six
darshanas can be said to be atheistic though the position of Nyaya is not very clear. Let us not try to be
faulit -finding by going away from the point under discussion.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Sun, 10/31/10, srikanta@...
<srikanta@...> wrote:

From: srikanta@... <srikanta@...>
Subject: [Advaita-l] Adwaita and God
To: advaita-l@...
Date: Sunday, October 31, 2010, 2:28 AM
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Ramamurthy Venkateswaran | 1 Nov 2010 06:13
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Re: Adwaita and and caste.


Dear Shri Ravi Chandraji,

The information that you had provided in your mail is informative. Thank you.

Sincerely yours,

R. Venkateswaran 
B-104, Anisha Grange
Kaggadaspura, 6th E Cross
Bangalore-560093
Phone: 080-41676511; M: 0 96638 57781)
email: r_venkateswaran@... 

> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:29:59 -0700
> From: vadhula@...
> To: advaita-l@...
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Adwaita and and caste.
> 
> Pranam to all,
> 
> It was correctly mentioned that a bad person is not = Shudra and good person is not = Braahmana. A fallen
individual (based on acts,deeds, etc) does not change their varna. Examples include: Ravana, Ajamila,
Ashwatamma, Kamsa, etc. IMHO, also not following one's svadharma may not change one's varna as long as
nitya-karmas and samskaras are performed. Many Rajputs over past couple of generations are into
business as their palaces are now hotels.
> 
> As Kanchi Paramacharya mentioned, Dvija-Bandhu occurs when 3 consequetive generations have not
chanted Gayatri Mantra and subsequent generations in that lineage cannot undergo upanyana. Many
Braahmanas are barely escape the tag of Bandhu nowadays, since they chant Gayatri during Sandhyavandana
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srikanta | 1 Nov 2010 12:39
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Adwaita and God

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjee

You say according to Sankhya system,'Ishwara is asiddha".Is it not true?We
know the existence of Ishwara only through the vedas.But,Sankhya system is
not considered as "avaidik",just like Vaisheshika or other nonvaidik
philosophies.That is why Shankara didnot tookit upon itself for the
establishment of a personal God called Ishwara,but,engaged himself in
showing the vedas in the new light than the other thinkers.Shankara in his
major portion of his bhashyas has not bothered to show the existence of
Ishwara,but has shown the existence of Brahman,that is "Tatvamasi",or
"Aham Brahmasmi",'Sarvam khalu idam Brahma"Atmaivaidam sarvam"etc.That is
why he declares,Brahma satyam jagan mithya,jivo Brahmaiva naparah!.There
are many sentences in his Brahmasutrabhashya and other bhashyas,to prove
that he never held a personal God as Ishwara.That is why he is considered
as an atheist or praccanna Bauddha by other later schools as
Vishhishtadwaitins and dwaitins.
Regards,                                               N.Srikanta.
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srikanta | 1 Nov 2010 12:54
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Adwaita and caste system.

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjee.
Iam not trying to establish chronologically the dates of Manu smrthi or
Yanjnavalkya smrthi.I am just pointing out that the social order which was
there in the earlier smrthis have been replaced by other smrthis at later
times,because of the compulsion of social order.For example the
Yajnavalkya smrthi says,"a Brahmin can marry from a Brahmain,kshtriya and
Vaishya kanyas(all from the these three varnas).Is it possible in kaliyuga
at these times.Similarly,a can a widow beget a progeny from the brother of
her deceased husband,without a social stigma attached to her?In olden days
even Nambuthris had such a system,which has been abolished in modern
times.Iam only trying to say that as the society became more and more
civilized,many practices have been given up.That is all.Iam not entering
into a debate on the basis of chronology,as the scholars differ in their
views regarding Mahabharatha,Ramayana,Manu smrthi or Yanjnavalkya smrthi.
Regards,                                             N.Srikanta.
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raghavender ganti | 1 Nov 2010 13:27
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Re: Adwaita and caste system.

Sri Gurubhyon Namaha
                                      "Iam only trying to
say that as the 
society became more and more civilized"
Have we really become more civilized than what we were????????

Sri Kamakshi
Raghav

________________________________
From: "srikanta@..." <srikanta@...>
To: advaita-l@...
Sent: Mon, November 1, 2010 5:24:53 PM
Subject: [Advaita-l] Adwaita and caste system.

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjee.
Iam not trying to establish chronologically the dates of Manu smrthi or
Yanjnavalkya smrthi.I am just pointing out that the social order which was
there in the earlier smrthis have been replaced by other smrthis at later
times,because of the compulsion of social order.For example the
Yajnavalkya smrthi says,"a Brahmin can marry from a Brahmain,kshtriya and
Vaishya kanyas(all from the these three varnas).Is it possible in kaliyuga
at these times.Similarly,a can a widow beget a progeny from the brother of
her deceased husband,without a social stigma attached to her?In olden days
even Nambuthris had such a system,which has been abolished in modern
times.Iam only trying to say that as the society became more and more
civilized,many practices have been given up.That is all.Iam not entering
into a debate on the basis of chronology,as the scholars differ in their
views regarding Mahabharatha,Ramayana,Manu smrthi or Yanjnavalkya smrthi.
Regards,                                            N.Srikanta.
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Sunil Bhattacharjya | 1 Nov 2010 16:42
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Re: Adwaita and God

Dear Shrikantaji,

Lord Krishna says Sankhya and Yoga should not be thought of as two and the scholar Adi Sankaracharya, who
elucidated the Bhagavad Gita. knew that very well. He also knew that Yoga says that the Vaachaka of Isvara
is "OM". In what way do you think that Sankhya then did not believe in Ishvara. Upanishad says "Neti Neti"
(or not this, not this)  and that means that Ishvara is not an object that one can know and point out saying
this is Brahman and the Sankhya says the same thing differently as Ishvara cannot be proved and point out
and say "this is Isvara". Everything is Brahman (OM) and this not different from Ishvara (OM). Please do
not attempt to show that Ishvara is Saguna Brahman and so is different from Nirguna Brahman and for this
reason the above argument does not hold. Patanjali, who preceded Adi Sankaracharya made that problem
disappear by saying that the Vaachaka of Ishvara is OM. Sarvan khalvidam Brahma and who understood it
better than Adi
 Sankaracharya. 

Due to Adi Sankaracharya being a genious he understood Lord Buddha well despite so many Buddhist
logiicians having distorted the original cocept of Shunyata in Buddhism.  I do not consider
Yamunacharya, who was the first to call Adi Sankaracharya as "Pracchanna Buddha", at par with Adi
Sankaracharya. Etymologically Shunya means one that expands and become invisible. The nearest example
I can say is that when one evaporates water it (water) disappears as it  spreads but does not cease to
exist. The great scientist Eddington showed that the World will not exist if even one single atom is taken
away from it. Lord Vishnu is Shunya as he spreads the entire creation and one cannot really describe his
attributes. Le us try to understand the concepts and not get upset by the limitations of the written words.

Regards,

Sunil . Bhattacharjya

--- On Mon, 11/1/10, srikanta@...
<srikanta@...> wrote:
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Sunil Bhattacharjya | 1 Nov 2010 16:58
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Re: Adwaita and caste system.

Dear Srikantaji,

I am not saying that you are trying to establish chronologically the dates of Manu Smriti and Yajnavalkya
Smriti and there is no need for working on it as it is known that Manu Smriti was the Smriti for the earlier
Yuga than was the Yajnavalkya Smriti. In fact though the Yajnavalkya Smriti was also for the Treta yuga
Vedavyasa gave higher recognition to the Gautama Smriti for the Treta yuga. From your mail the
Yajnavalkya Smriti appeared to have preceded the Manu Smriti and I was referring to that only.

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Mon, 11/1/10, srikanta@...
<srikanta@...> wrote:

From: srikanta@... <srikanta@...>
Subject: [Advaita-l] Adwaita and caste system.
To: advaita-l@...
Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 4:54 AM

Dear Sunil Bhattacharjee.
Iam not trying to establish chronologically the dates of Manu smrthi or
Yanjnavalkya smrthi.I am just pointing out that the social order which was
there in the earlier smrthis have been replaced by other smrthis at later
times,because of the compulsion of social order.For example the
Yajnavalkya smrthi says,"a Brahmin can marry from a Brahmain,kshtriya and
Vaishya kanyas(all from the these three varnas).Is it possible in kaliyuga
at these times.Similarly,a can a widow beget a progeny from the brother of
her deceased husband,without a social stigma attached to her?In olden days
even Nambuthris had such a system,which has been abolished in modern
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Guy Werlings | 1 Nov 2010 17:07
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avasthAtraya

Dear List Members,

namo namaH |

When it comes to avasthAtraya, I have seen the following expressions:

avasthAtraya vicAra,

avasthAtraya prakR^iyA and recently in the messages of the list,

avasthAtraya parIkShA.

Are all those expressions exact synonyms?

In French, we use to say that no word/expression is really an exact synonym of another word/expression ant
that it is always worth to try to discrimininate between seeming synonyms.

Should be grateful for comments.

dhanyavAdaH|

vandanAni

Guy
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Sunil Bhattacharjya | 1 Nov 2010 19:14
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Re: avasthAtraya

Dear friends,

While the experts will respond to the query may I add an additional query by asking is it not that generally
the  "Vichara" (ie. the preview} comes first and then comes he "Prakriya" (ie. the activity)) and then at
the last step comes the "Pariksha" (ie. the review).

Regards,

Sunil K. Bhattacharjya

--- On Mon, 11/1/10, Guy Werlings <werlings.guy@...> wrote:

From: Guy Werlings <werlings.guy@...>
Subject: [Advaita-l] avasthAtraya
To: advaita-l@...
Date: Monday, November 1, 2010, 9:07 AM

Dear List Members,

namo namaH |

When it comes to avasthAtraya, I have seen the following expressions:

avasthAtraya vicAra,

avasthAtraya prakR^iyA and recently in the messages of the list,

avasthAtraya parIkShA.

Are all those expressions exact synonyms?
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Vidyasankar Sundaresan | 1 Nov 2010 21:14
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Re: Advaita and Caste System


It is typical of this kind of topic that everybody focuses on who is a good brahmin. Suresh has a much
more fundamental issue - the very existence of caste as a social system.

> 
> I understand that caste system was an integral part of Indian society, but isn't it strange that advaitins
did nothing to abolish it? I can understand dvaitins and the rest maintaining caste system - they believe
in distinctions, not only between souls and God but also between the souls themselves. But advaita
preaches a lofty ideal, namely oneness. 
> 

Why should any ancient philosopher have been a social activist in the contemporary sense?

> How could such people preach the divisive (not to mention racist) caste system on the one hand and the noble
idea of nondualism on the other? It is so contradictory and baffling.
> 

I don't see how race enters into the picture of caste, unless you buy into outmoded ideas of the "races"
that populated the Indian subcontinent thousands of years ago.

Could you explain exactly what is contradictory and baffling? Which advaitin "preached" the caste system?
Do you think that the caste system came into existence because somebody or the other "preached" it to
the people? And if you think that advaitins should have worked towards abolishing the existing social
structure of caste, do you think they should have also worked towards abolishing gender and the color
of one's skin? All of these are determined by birth 

> I hope someone can shed some light on this. I also hope no one takes my post the wrong way. At least to me,
advaita and caste system are like light and night - they seem to have nothing in common. So it seems to me that
the advaitins, from Sankara to Vivekananda to the latest guru, all had a good chance to reform Hindu
society - and failed to do so.
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