A List to Discuss Advaita Vedanta as Taught by Sri Sankara

Varadaraja Sharma | 1 Sep 2010 09:35

Knowledge, renunciation and varNASrama rules - Is sanyasa ashrama sweekaram a must

Radhe Krishna

Tam adbutam balakam ambujekshanam
Chaturbujam shankagatharudayudam
Shrivatsalakshmam galashobi kaustubham
Pitambaram Sandra payoda saubagam
Maharha vaidurya kirita kundala
Tvisha parishvakta sahasra kundalam
Uddama kanchyangada kankanadibir
Virochamanam vasudeva aikshata

Shriman Praveen Bhat and dear all Gokulashtami greetings, Radhe Krishna

I was unwell and was not able to continue. I read again the posts of Shriman vidyasankar, Venkatesh Murthy
and Shri Jaldhar Vyas on this thread with specific focus on Sanyasa Ashrama. In the very first post of this
thread, shriman Vidyasankar said he modified name of the subject. So, I went back to the thread,
“Whether Arjuna was aproksha gnyani” and read the discussions there too. I hope I have answers.

Regarding what you said, “Thanks for indulging me in it, though I have been of no help”, IMHO, your
deliberations helped me to understand the issue in a different perspective.

Under the thread “Whether Arjuna was aproksha gnyani” Shriman Jaldhar vyas wrote :

“A jnani will always be a sannyasi even if he starts in another ashrama because jnana necessarily implies
vairagya and distaste for material posessions etc. He may not have danda or kamandalu etc. These things
are governed by shastras so there may well be restrictions of various kinds but the core values of sannyasa
are capable of being practised by anyone with the right qualifications. Even in the case of institutional
sannyasa it is not always so cut and dry”

Again, Shriman Vidyasankar in the thread, Knowledge, renunciation and varNASrama rules says :

(Continue reading)

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Varadaraja Sharma | 1 Sep 2010 09:35

Knowledge, renunciation and varNASrama rules - Is sanyasa ashrama sweekaram a must

Radhe Krishna

Tam adbutam balakam ambujekshanam
Chaturbujam shankagatharudayudam
Shrivatsalakshmam galashobi kaustubham
Pitambaram Sandra payoda saubagam
Maharha vaidurya kirita kundala
Tvisha parishvakta sahasra kundalam
Uddama kanchyangada kankanadibir
Virochamanam vasudeva aikshata

Shriman Praveen Bhat and dear all Gokulashtami greetings, Radhe Krishna

I was unwell and was not able to continue. I read again the posts of Shriman vidyasankar, Venkatesh Murthy
and Shri Jaldhar Vyas on this thread with specific focus on Sanyasa Ashrama. In the very first post of this
thread, shriman Vidyasankar said he modified name of the subject. So, I went back to the thread,
“Whether Arjuna was aproksha gnyani” and read the discussions there too. I hope I have answers.

Regarding what you said, “Thanks for indulging me in it, though I have been of no help”, IMHO, your
deliberations helped me to understand the issue in a different perspective.

Under the thread “Whether Arjuna was aproksha gnyani” Shriman Jaldhar vyas wrote :

“A jnani will always be a sannyasi even if he starts in another ashrama because jnana necessarily implies
vairagya and distaste for material posessions etc. He may not have danda or kamandalu etc. These things
are governed by shastras so there may well be restrictions of various kinds but the core values of sannyasa
are capable of being practised by anyone with the right qualifications. Even in the case of institutional
sannyasa it is not always so cut and dry”

Again, Shriman Vidyasankar in the thread, Knowledge, renunciation and varNASrama rules says :

(Continue reading)

headers

Bhaskar YR | 1 Sep 2010 10:30

pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

praNAms
Hare Krishna

Last week I have attended an 'ashlesha bali' and sarpa saMskAra ritual  as 
a Ritvik. After pooja & hOma, during AshirvachanaM,  pradhAna AchArya has 
told the katru that due to pApa karma done by his pUrvaja-s (ancestors) he 
& his family were suffering from nAga dOsha,  now, after performing all 
these prAyaschitta karma-s (bali, saMskAra etc.) these sins have been 
cleared.  I asked that Acharya (ofcourse, after getting my saMbhAvane ) 
how can it be?? why he has to suffer without fault of his own??  why that 
sarpa reprimand this poor katru & his family  when he is noway related to 
his purvaja-s pApa kArya...IOW, how can one jeeva's karma phala can affect 
the other jeeva-s & made him/them to suffer..does it not lead to 'akruta 
abhyAgama'??  which shankara negates in sUtra bhAshya??  Since pradhAna 
Acharya was not a vedAnti, he could not clarify my doubt...Hence I am 
asking this doubt in this list ...Please clarify.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

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Venkatesh Murthy | 1 Sep 2010 13:29

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@...> wrote:
> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
>
> Last week I have attended an 'ashlesha bali' and sarpa saMskAra ritual  as
> a Ritvik. After pooja & hOma, during AshirvachanaM,  pradhAna AchArya has
> told the katru that due to pApa karma done by his pUrvaja-s (ancestors) he
> & his family were suffering from nAga dOsha,  now, after performing all
> these prAyaschitta karma-s (bali, saMskAra etc.) these sins have been
> cleared.  I asked that Acharya (ofcourse, after getting my saMbhAvane )
> how can it be?? why he has to suffer without fault of his own??  why that
> sarpa reprimand this poor katru & his family  when he is noway related to
> his purvaja-s pApa kArya...IOW, how can one jeeva's karma phala can affect
> the other jeeva-s & made him/them to suffer..does it not lead to 'akruta
> abhyAgama'??  which shankara negates in sUtra bhAshya??  Since pradhAna
> Acharya was not a vedAnti, he could not clarify my doubt...Hence I am
> asking this doubt in this list ...Please clarify.
>

In Sathyanarayana Puja Katha the Sadhu Vaisya did not do Puja even
after daughter got married. This made Sathyanarayana angry.  He cursed
Vaisya and his family. His family suffered very much. Afterwards he
prays to Sathyanarayana he gets wealth and family is happy. But when
king Angadhvaja rejected Sathyanarayana Prasada he destroyed all his
sons and wealth. Again the king did Puja  got back sons and wealth.

The Purana have lot of stories Papa of someone will punish him and his
family.  Why should we see Vedanta to explain this?

Regards

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Bhaskar YR | 1 Sep 2010 14:14

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

praNAms
Hare Krishna

In Sathyanarayana Puja Katha the Sadhu Vaisya did not do Puja even
after daughter got married. This made Sathyanarayana angry.  He cursed
Vaisya and his family. His family suffered very much. Afterwards he
prays to Sathyanarayana he gets wealth and family is happy. But when
king Angadhvaja rejected Sathyanarayana Prasada he destroyed all his
sons and wealth. Again the king did Puja  got back sons and wealth.

>  yes, you are right 'vrata kathe' in 5 adhyAya-s go like this!!  but 
dont you think this would show satyanArAyaNa in a bad light??  is this 
devata lacking proper discrimination power to take revenge irrationally on 
the whole family?? why he has to appear in front of those vaishya & his 
son-in-law despite knowing they are liars??  why at the end he has shown 
his 'real' form to those 'vartaka-s' without any meaningful sAdhana from 
them!!?? If you dig these type of stories further, you will end up in 
getting doubts like this. is it not??  Anyway, I always take these purANic 
stories with a pinch of salt and I think these episodes cannot be held as 
pramANa to prove karma by one & its anubhOga by another!!

The Purana have lot of stories Papa of someone will punish him and his
family.  Why should we see Vedanta to explain this?

> purANic stories should ultimately lead us to vedAntic parama siddhAnta.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

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Venkatesh Murthy | 1 Sep 2010 17:14

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 5:44 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@...> wrote:
> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
>

>>  yes, you are right 'vrata kathe' in 5 adhyAya-s go like this!!  but
> dont you think this would show satyanArAyaNa in a bad light??  is this
> devata lacking proper discrimination power to take revenge irrationally on
> the whole family?? why he has to appear in front of those vaishya & his
> son-in-law despite knowing they are liars??  why at the end he has shown
> his 'real' form to those 'vartaka-s' without any meaningful sAdhana from
> them!!?? If you dig these type of stories further, you will end up in
> getting doubts like this. is it not??  Anyway, I always take these purANic
> stories with a pinch of salt and I think these episodes cannot be held as
> pramANa to prove karma by one & its anubhOga by another!!
>

Duryodhana's Papa made the whole Kaurava family suffer. If he gave
Pandavas the land no Kaurava would have got killed because they would
have not fought a war. One Jeeva can do such a big Papa other Jeeva-s
around it can suffer the results. Many examples we see of this.A bad
son's Papa can make his parents and friends suffer.

> The Purana have lot of stories Papa of someone will punish him and his
> family.  Why should we see Vedanta to explain this?
>
>> purANic stories should ultimately lead us to vedAntic parama siddhAnta.
>

If Purana is not against Vedanta we should accept it. Does Vedanta

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Praveen R. Bhat | 2 Sep 2010 07:08

Re: Knowledge, renunciation and varNASrama rules - Is sanyasa ashrama sweekaram a must

Hari OM, Varadaraja ji,

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Varadaraja Sharma <
rishyasrunga@...> wrote:

> My real concern is what is the expected code of conduct of brahmanas to
> sthri shudradi sanysins ( Not vidvat sanyasins)? Should the brahmana males
> pay their obeisance to these people with a sashtanga namaskara and offer
> anna bhiksha?
>
> In the sishtachara code as conveyed to me by my elders which I passed on to
> the next generation, we (brahmanas) are not supposed to pay obeisance to
> people of other varnas irrespective of their age with a sashtanga namaskara.

Does the fact of them embracing sanyasa requires modification in the code
> being followed?
>

I have no scriptural references to offer, but the following is my
understanding. A saMnyAsi has no varNa, so I see no reason to continue the
earlier code (whatever it was). Even among saMnyAsis, I recall from Kanchi
Paramacharya's Hindu Dharma, who should offer obeisances to whom is guided
by the elder being one with more number of Vyasa pujas, irrespective of age.
This is no direct answer to your Q, but hopefully some related data.

praNAm,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known!
[Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

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Bhaskar YR | 2 Sep 2010 07:45

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

If other Jeeva-s are the Bhokta and Papa Karta Jeeva is not Bhokta this is 
wrong because it is against law of Karma.

praNAms
Hare krishna

This is what exactly the case what I was talking in 'Ashlesha bali'...had 
'pApa' karta jeeva suffered the phala by itself, another jeeva in his 
dynasty would have not suffered at all...So strictly speaking, there is no 
question of 'fresh' & chronic suffering by another jeeva in the generation 
due to pApa kArya that has been committed by his ancestors some 3-4 
generations back!!  This is just like the verdict 'hang the grandson for 
the murder committed by his grand father some 100 years back' ) 

Kindly see shankara bhAshya on 'akrutAbhyAgama & kruta vipraNAsha'.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
bhaskar

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Satish Arigela | 2 Sep 2010 09:12

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden


>This is what exactly the case what I was talking in 'Ashlesha bali'...had 
>'pApa' karta jeeva suffered the phala by itself, another jeeva in his 
>dynasty would have not suffered at all...So strictly speaking, there is no 
>question of 'fresh' & chronic suffering by another jeeva in the generation 
>due to pApa kArya that has been committed by his ancestors some 3-4 
>generations back!!  This is just like the verdict 'hang the grandson for 
>the murder committed by his grand father some 100 years back' ) 

Not trying to say anybody is wrong or right here..and sorry if the following is 
not to scholarly tastes:

Let us say for example: I sit under an jack-fruit tree(supposedly planted by my 
great grand father) and a jack fruit falls on my head   That has got to be 
painful... it is certainly not to my liking. Since people could seriously get 
hurt from jack fruits falling down... I say it is illogical.. A jack fruit  
should ideally suspend in air when its link to the tree is severed...so  that 
way people don't get hurt(There seems to be an underlying assumption here that 
there is some natural law which says people-humans should not get hurt from 
natural phenomenon when someone says this).

I have two choices : 

1) I do not like what happens naturally and call  it illogical.. How is it 
logical?.. people getting hurt by ripe jack fruits(supposedly planted by fore 
fathers)  for no fault of theirs!!

One can complain and call it illogical but it does not change anything.

2) Observe and accept that it is just natural(instead of calling illogical) and

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Praveen R. Bhat | 2 Sep 2010 09:38

Re: pUrvajas' karma / pApa & our burden

Hari OM, Bhaskar ji,

I don't have Bhagavatpada's bhashya reference for this, but for similar
reason that it is said that the j~nAni's sa~Ncita puNya accrues to those who
praise him and his sa~Ncita pApa accrues to those who criticize him. Why is
one jIva related with other's sa~Ncita here too? AFAIK, the jIva's birth in
a particular family is his purva janma saMskAra and vAsana and it includes
the relation with the those jIva-s he would relate in his prArabdha that
gave this janma. That prArabdha itself includes his own ill-doings that bind
him to his ancestor's pApa karma, though they are not his direct doings. He
relates to them in his deha bhAva due to that very prArabdha of his, not
someone else's. That binding is also responsible for his offering piNDa.

The things are not as clearly visible to us, being adRRiShTa, and thus we
should take it on shraddhA, shouldn't we? :)

praNAm,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known!
[Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 2:00 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr@...> wrote:

> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
>
> Last week I have attended an 'ashlesha bali' and sarpa saMskAra ritual  as
> a Ritvik. After pooja & hOma, during AshirvachanaM,  pradhAna AchArya has
> told the katru that due to pApa karma done by his pUrvaja-s (ancestors) he
> & his family were suffering from nAga dOsha,  now, after performing all

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