V Subrahmanian | 1 Jul 2010 03:46
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Re: Anadimatparambrahma

Here are some more thoughts on the topic:

First a correction:

I had presented these two verses and had highlighted two words in the second
verse.  I realized later that I should have underlined the word प्रकृतिः in
the first verse and not in the second.  Accordingly, the highlighting is
shown now as:

The wording of the verse 7.4 is:

भूमिरापोऽनलो वायुः खं मनो
बुद्धिरेव च ।
अहंकार इतीयं मे भिन्ना
*प्रकृतिर*ष्टधा ॥

In the above verse the Lord is giving a list of the jaDa prakRti that forms
His lower nature called aparA prakRti.  This name 'aparA prakRti' appears
only in the next verse:7.5 -

*अपरे*यं इतस्त्वन्यां प्रकृतिं
विद्धि मे पराम् ।
जीवभूतां महाबाहो ययेदं धार्यते
जगत् ॥

The words in red fonts show the 'aparaa prakRti' and the blue fonts show the
paraa prakrti, the two 'natures' of Brahman.

Interestingly, the 'paraa prakRti' that is shown as jiva is taught as the
very nature of Brahman, that too, the pAramArthika, higher nature.  So,
(Continue reading)

Venkatesh Murthy | 1 Jul 2010 05:51
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Re: Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4

Answer in brief is given below

Puranas give a chance for the women and non brahmins to understand the
vedanta. But purana knowledge is not same as vedanta knowledge.
Arjuna was a warrior not a brahmin Only sannyasi can get vedanta
knowledge.  Krishna cannot give vedanta knowledge to non sannyasi. He
gave purana type of knowledge for non sannyasi Arjuna.  His doubts got
cleared. He fought and won the war.

Purana  type knowledge is also good. Dont misunderstand. It leads to
vedanta knowledge as listener is born as brahmin in next janma.
Arjuna listened to God so this purana  itihasa type knowledge must
have very good effect. Probably in next janma he got a chance for
learning vedanta.

Nobody should say Krishna Paramatma cannot give knowledge to you. God
gives knowledge to you when you are fit to receive it. He will protect
you by  knowledge according to your status.  He will not  break the
varnasrama rules.  We cant teach MSC Maths to  a SSLC student. He will
be confused. We must teach  SSLC Maths only.

Arjuna was sad and said he will not fight Bhishma and others> How can
God give sannyasi type instruction to him.

-Venkatesh

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:24 PM, V Subrahmanian
<v.subrahmanian@...> wrote:
> I am sorry for this big digression. Let me now resume to our discussion of
> verse 18.73. Bhagavatpada says in His commentary, “From the reply of Arjuna
(Continue reading)

balagopal ramakrishnan | 1 Jul 2010 06:31
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Re: Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4

Namasthe,
The four 'varnas' are a guide to a person to identify one's strength and weaknesses and select the
activities he can pursue more effectively. The 'satwa, raja & tamo ' gunas are used for the litmus test.
Bhagavan has extensively covered this aspect. By practise, the choice was transferred from conscious to
birth. That had its own impact on the society - both good and bad.  'Satva' guna was dominant in Arjuna when
he was with the Lord, and hence was in the state of 'brahminhood'.
Regards
Balagopal

Bhaskar YR | 1 Jul 2010 07:03
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Re: Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4

praNAms Sri Venkatesh Murthy
Hare Krishna

>  You can expect more scholarly & deplomatic reply from Sri Subbu 
prabhuji or Sri Vidya prabhuji...In the meantime you can cherish my not so 
worthy reply :-))

Puranas give a chance for the women and non brahmins to understand the 
vedanta. But purana knowledge is not same as vedanta knowledge.

>  but stree shudrAdi-s can get vedAntic knowledge from smruti, itihAsa, 
purAna itself...vidhura, dharmavyAdha etc. of mahAbhArata,  stand tall in 
this type of category. 

Arjuna was a warrior not a brahmin Only sannyasi can get vedanta 
knowledge. 

>  saNyAsa is helpful to channalize your sAdhana (brahma jignAsa) in right 
direction...but it does not mean ONLY saNyAsi-s would get the vedAntic 
knowledge...For that matter janaka who taught shuka was not a sanyAsi but 
a kshatriya, yagnAvalkya at the time of announcing he is 'the brahmajnAni' 
was not a sanyAsi but a gruhasta. (ofcourse, if you consider all these 
upanishadic stories are real life episodes)

Krishna cannot give vedanta knowledge to non sannyasi. 

> do you mean to say Krishna himself was not aware of vedAntic knowledge 
since krishna himself was not a sanyAsi & was a big polygamist :-)) and 
was having lakhs of kids :-))

(Continue reading)

V Subrahmanian | 1 Jul 2010 08:05
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Re: Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 4

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 12:19 AM, Dr. Yadu Moharir <ymoharir@...>wrote:

> Dear Subbu-Ji:
>
> I have been enjoying your detailed discussion about j~naani.
>
> In your opinion how many known j~naanii's have been throughout the known
> history ?
>
> If very few then does this not mean that "aj~naana" is "anaadi" as well !!
>
> Regards,
>
> Yadu
>

Dear Sir,

For your first question the reply is:  There is no count.  When we say
'known' the knowledge must be having a source.  Again 'known' history is
also very vague and could have a very large range.  So, there would be no
way we can take a count.

For your second question the reply is:  ajnAna is anAdi.  Samsara is anAdi.
The Veda is anAdi.  The purpose of the Veda is to remove ajnAna, the cause
of samsara.  So, ajnAna is anAdi.

Regards,
subbu
(Continue reading)

Shrinivas Gadkari | 1 Jul 2010 08:14
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Anadimatparambrahma

Namaste,
 
I am going to add to an already confused issue.
 
From 15.16,15.17 we have uttama puruSa distinct from akSara puruSa.
We call this uttama puruSa - vAsudeva, parameshvara.
His sakti Adi mAyA is also referred to as akSara. The puruSa that operates 
within mAyA (is limited by mAyA) is akSara puruSa (paramAtmA). Hence 
it makes sense to place uttama puruSa above akSara puruSa.
 
From 8.3 we know that this akSara (Adi mAyA) is what is termed as
param brahma. Since uttama puruSa is beyond akSara (Adi mAyA),
from view point of uttama puruSa it seems okay to split 13.13 verse as: 
anAdi matparam brahma na sat tat na asat ucyate.
 
This split also agrees with 14.3 which says:
mama yonir mahat brahma tasmin garbham dadhAmi aham
(my womb is mahat brahma in that I provide the seed for foetus)
 
Also if param brahma is neither sat nor asat, we need something
above this param brahma for sat to emerge from it.
 
Also in shAkta texts, Adi mAtA is called param brahma. This
again falls in line with what has been said above. Note: Adi mAtA
is never called parameshvara, bhagavAn, but referred to as
parameshvarI, bahagavati. 
 
So without compromising advaita it is possible to use the above 
mentioned split of 13.13. Only that we are now giving param brahma 
a position next to uttama puruSa.
(Continue reading)

Bhaskar YR | 1 Jul 2010 14:22
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Re: Two types of Atma jnAni-s &their approachtoreallife situation

sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Hare Krishna

I am drafting my understanding on your questions prabhuji..In the 
meanwhile, would like to get clarification on some of your view points  & 
also want to share my thoughts on some of your comments.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

Bhaskar, there is a reason I wanted to go back to fundamentals. All that
you say would make sense only if you define the word jnAnI and the term
samyag-darSana in particular ways. 

bhaskar :

I do agree & accept that samyag darshi or absolute brahma jnAni in my book 
is not the same as you explained.  In my books the absolute brahma jnAni 
does not get kAma krOdha & controls it subsequently.  So, I request you to 
give me a para or two definitions about samyag jnAni in your own words in 
a simple language prabhuji...In the recent post you had given the example 
of "harati viveka-prajnAM" from geeta bhAshya...Here Kindly clarify harati 
viveka prajnAM should be understood jnAna pravrutti daurbalya or jnAna 
daurbalya...coz. you are directly talking about  viveka-prajnA..not 
pravrutti of that viveka.

Sri Vidya prabhuji :

All that others say make sense only because others define the word jnAnI 
and samyag-darSana in a more
flexible way than you do. It is because of the more flexible definition 
(Continue reading)

Rajaram Venkataramani | 1 Jul 2010 22:37
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Re: Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'?

Dear Sri Subrahmanian,

Thank you for your post with a detailed analysis. I read them individually
but will put them all in a document and read together. In the meantime,
could you please let me know if any of the tikkas on Sankara Bhashyam touch
this question? I would like to know the opinion of Sankara's immediate
disciples on this matter and later day stalwarts such as Madhusudana
Saraswati. I dont know if contemporary Sankaracharyas deal with such
questions and if so, their opinion.

Best Regards
Rajaram V.
Vidyasankar Sundaresan | 1 Jul 2010 23:41
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Re: Two types of Atma jnAni-s &their approachtoreallife situation


> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> Bhaskar, there is a reason I wanted to go back to fundamentals. All that
> you say would make sense only if you define the word jnAnI and the term
> samyag-darSana in particular ways. 
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> I do agree & accept that samyag darshi or absolute brahma jnAni in my book 
> is not the same as you explained. In my books the absolute brahma jnAni 
> does not get kAma krOdha & controls it subsequently. So, I request you to 
> give me a para or two definitions about samyag jnAni in your own words in 
> a simple language prabhuji...In the recent post you had given the example 
> of "harati viveka-prajnAM" from geeta bhAshya...Here Kindly clarify harati 
> viveka prajnAM should be understood jnAna pravrutti daurbalya or jnAna 
> daurbalya...coz. you are directly talking about viveka-prajnA..not 
> pravrutti of that viveka.
>
> 
> Sri Vidya prabhuji :
> 
> All that others say make sense only because others define the word jnAnI 
> and samyag-darSana in a more
> flexible way than you do. It is because of the more flexible definition 
> that others can talk about -vara, -varIya and -varishTha among jnAnI-s. 
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> again, I have heard umpteen times about these grades in jnAni-s...but 
(Continue reading)

V Subrahmanian | 2 Jul 2010 03:15
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Bh.Gita verse 18.73 - Was Arjuna an 'aparoksha Jnani'? - Part 5 (Concluded)

What is the sadhana?  In 5.12, Bhagavan says, “Giving up the fruits of works
the Yogin attains disciplined peace.” The Bhashya for this verse reads: The
yogi with the conviction, “Actions are for God, not for my gain” attains
peace (mokshaakhyam shaantim) called liberation. It is to be understood that
he attains this through the stages of purification of the mind, acquisition
of knowledge, renunciation of all actions, and steadfastness in Knowledge”.
In 5.6 Bhagavan says, “Perfected in Yoga, in course of time, one wins it as
one’s own self.”

In the verse under discussion, Arjuna confirms to the Lord that He has not
only understood the doctrine clearly but also resolved to perform Karma
Yoga. Is this situation not equivalent to the person who has boarded the
flight bound for New York with valid documents? Therefore, *Bhagavatpada
sees Arjuna as a jnani-in-the-making though not already one and quotes
passages related to the final fruit of liberation in line with other
scriptural texts.* Also, as we saw Bhagavatpada has simply followed Bhagavan
in extolling a karma yogin.

Now there is the final question, “Arjuna was not an ordinary warrior; He was
a man of innumerable virtues. He is said to be the incarnation of Rishi
Nara. He could even fight with and propitiate Lord shiva and receive from
Him the celestial astra. His chariot was driven by none other than Bhagavan.
He had the darshan of Bhagavan’s Viswarupa which according to Bhagavan
Himself none had seen before and none else would behold later. Bhagavan has
often expressed that Arjuna was very dear to Him. On top of all, He received
teaching about the Tattva directly from Bhagavan Himself. When Bhagavan’s
mere darshan should have liberated Arjuna, why, in spite of all these that
Arjuna could not go beyond Paroksha Jnana?

This is perhaps what makes Advaita more interesting than any other
(Continue reading)


Gmane