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Ananta Bhagwat | 1 Jun 2008 09:43
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Re: moxa-sAdhanA

----- Original Message ----

From: Ramesh Krishnamurthy
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2008
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] moxa-sAdhanA

 <Someone with a good understanding of mImAMsa might be able to explain this better. Some of
the issues you raise regarding the smR^iti-s may not arise if you
approach a proper traditional scholar. I am saying this because I also
had some of these doubts which  got (at least partially) resolved over time.>

1/ dhanyavAda to SrI Murali Karamchedu for the download link of a (pUrva) mImAMsA book

2/ 'am coming back on the issue of conscience since I find the issue important.

3/ I think, pUrva mImAMsA is not the right place to look for answers to ethical issues, though it is quite
important to the Vedic studies as such. As an example, kumArila tradition sanctions animal (shyena)
sacrifice for evil purpose - for causing injury to living beings. The modern day SAstrI may say that such
injunctions are applicable 'sthala-kAla paratve', though orthodox tradition holds the opposite. The
'sthala-kAla paratve' via media can also be reached through conscience developed out-side SAstra-s.

4/ My personal short-cut is: Look into gItA for conscience and go to SankarAcArya for philosophy. Rest will follow.

Regards
ananta
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Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra, Water | 2 Jun 2008 20:43
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Re: Meditation according to advaita


>Dear Sri Suresh,
>
>	In adavaita vedanta, if the word "meditation" is used in the
sense of
>vastutantrajnana, i.e. in the sense of cognizing one's own true nature
, then
>meditation is concerned about the meditator himself. It has to be noted
that the meditator should exist prior to the act of meditation. Then how
can the true nature of meditator can be known by doing meditation ?
Brihadaranyaka upanishad asks : " yEnEdagM sarvaM vijAnAti taM kEna
vijAniyAdvij~JAtAramarE kEna vijAnIyAditi ||" (Mantra 2-4-14).
>	If the word 'meditation' is used in the sense of "upAsane" then
it should be done according to the instructions of SAstra and AcArya.
This is kartRutantra.
>Which one is your requirement? please decide and act accordingly.

It seems to me that "meditation" and "vastu-tantra-jnAna"
are probably the most misunderstood and misused terms
in advaita today!

The reason I say this is as follows. Almost everything from
basic repetitive chanting to vedAntic AtmavicAra gets to be
called "meditation" by those who predominantly use the
English language. In turn, whenever someone asks a question
about meditation, it elicits two extremes of response from
those who use both Sanskrit and English.

One extreme kind of response endorses every possible
conception and misconception of "meditation" there can
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Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian | 3 Jun 2008 18:24
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Anarthakya - 1 (was Re: chanting knowing the meaning whether necessary)

Ok, I have been debating with myself whether to write this or not.
Anyway, here goes.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the principle of Anarthakya is very
important in mImA.msA. When we look at two statements, both from valid
sources, we need to find a common ground. The example we saw was
regarding mantras - the chAndogya and brahma-sUtras seem to say
knowing the meaning is not essential, but better, while yAska *seems*
to imply it is essential. The common ground is provided by the jaimini
sUtras regarding the varying degrees of results.

Even in other situations, this principle is of paramount importance.
For example, take Vidyasankars series on yoga. While he does not
explicitly call out this principle by name, he has used this "sound
principle" (as it has been called by F. Edgerton) in the
interpretation of shankaras texts. The same principle is used even in
legal interpretation in India (although the roots of it are unknown to
many people).

When shankara talks about no more effort being necessary after
samyag-j~naAna in some bhAShya, it thus refers to the uttamAdhikAri.
In the case of the bR^ihadAraNyaka bhAShya, he makes an allowance for
the normal case - one who is not an uttamAdhikArI, and points out the
use of yoga practice. This is clearly pointed out by Vidyaranya, et.
al, who take an unbiased, complete look at Shankaras texts.

There are, of course, two ways valid of going about this. One, we can
adopt a historical analysis and say that shankara evolved through his
texts and changed his opinion. It's a valid hypothesis for
examination. The other hypothesis is to assume that he never changed
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Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra, Water | 3 Jun 2008 22:49
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Re: Meditation according to advaita


In my last post, I left the discussion of vastu-tantra vs. kartR-tantra
with the statement that avidyA is at the root of the impulse to act,
because the Atman is always a-kartR.

Now, this fundamental insight of advaita vedAnta has tremendous
implications for its view of meditation. The Atman-brahman identity
is not something that is a result of meditation on brahman. This
identity is an already existent reality, so that its knowledge is not
dependent on any action. The jnAna is "vastu-tantra." This is clear
from sentences such as "tat tvam asi", "ahaM brahmAsmi" etc.
These sentences reveal this identity and do not impel one to any
action. 

Now, if meditation is a kind of mental action, does this mean that
meditation is useless? There are some who are extremely anxious
to set apart vedAnta thought from the usage of any terms such as
dhyAna, yoga or samAdhi. They would have one believe that indeed
meditation is overrated and useless, especially if tinged with some
kind of yoga influence. Particularly, if a traditional sannyAsi teacher
of vedAnta says something positive about meditation and yoga, then
he is claimed to have deviated significantly from Sankara's pure
teaching, no matter that he is the head of an unbroken paramparA
of disciple lineage from Sankara. As a matter of fact, they may even
think that being at the head of such a paramparA may be the very
reason why such a teacher has deviated from Sankara. After all, who
needs the blinkers of paramparA when we can rediscover Sankara
directly from his own writings, right?

Not so. The vedAnta source texts do not stop with revealing the
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kuntimaddi sadananda | 3 Jun 2008 23:31
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Re: Meditation according to advaita


Vidyaji - My PraNAms.
Beautifully expressed. Yes sadhana is essential even to gain the ability to see that the truth that is
self-existent and self-evident. 

Hari Om!
Sadananda

--- On Tue, 6/3/08, Sundaresan, Vidyasankar (GE Infra, Water) 

 If this is kartR-tantra, so
> be it.
> Even the desire for liberation is purusha-tantra. One man
> seeks
> it, another does not. Inasmuch as this is the situation,
> yoga does
> have a very important place. Merely saying this is
> vastutantra, that
> is purushatantra, etc. does not help in understanding how
> one can
> cross over from purushatantra action to vastutantra
> knowledge.
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Jaldhar H. Vyas | 4 Jun 2008 06:32
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Re: Mimamsa: mental perception as pramANa

On Fri, 30 May 2008, Praveen Bhat wrote:

> On a related note, could someone who has studied Mimamsa/ sutras guide
> me to an authentic
> online or printed resource on it, with an English translation/
> commentary?

Coincidentally what I've been busy with lately is revamping the Purva 
Mimamsa Home Page (http://www.mimamsa.org/)

It will contain:

* Articles about Purva Mimamsa
* Biographies of Mimamsaka authors
* Glossary of Mimamsaka terms
* Bibliography of Mimamsaka works
* PDFs of Mimamsaka texts.

...and anything else that you want to know about the subject.

There is a lot of work remaining but check it out and see if it is useful 
to you.

On Fri, 30 May 2008, Murali Karamchedu wrote:

> I think the moderators( Jaldhar) will post this to the main website when
> they get a moment; but the link should be active for a couple of months.

Thankyou!  The PDF is now available from
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Praveen | 4 Jun 2008 09:31
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Re: Mimamsa: mental perception as pramANa

praNAm all,

Hari Om, Jaldharji,

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar@...> wrote:

> Coincidentally what I've been busy with lately is revamping the Purva
> Mimamsa Home Page (http://www.mimamsa.org/)
...
> There is a lot of work remaining but check it out and see if it is useful
> to you.

I did find it from Google search earlier on and will be revisiting to check
updates often. Surprisingly, I didn't see so many working links then as
I see today! Thanks much.

> On Fri, 30 May 2008, Murali Karamchedu wrote:
>
>> I think the moderators( Jaldhar) will post this to the main website when
>> they get a moment; but the link should be active for a couple of months.
>
> Thankyou!  The PDF is now available from
>
> http://www.mimamsa.org/texts/
>

Muraliji, thanks, I finally managed to download the text after multiple failed
tries (owing to dialup speeds). Those tinyurl and rapidshare servers didn't
allow continuing downloads after paused/ broken connection. I hope the
mimamsa.org server allows the same.
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narayan iyer | 4 Jun 2008 17:36
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law of karma

Pranams,

Being a relatively a new member of the Group, I was browsing through the messages in archives.  I was
facinated by the explanation of erudite members and a few quotations and responses given by HH Sri
Chandrasekhara Bharati.  My limited intellect is consumed by the following doubts:

1. Does the phala-sutras of many stotras, saharasnamams, stuties etc. exaggerate 100% that sins will be
expunged if the stotras etc. recited with bhakti, when the fact is law of karma is inexorable.

2. Does Hindu dharma subscribe to retribution (because it is said that Ishwara will be otherwise partial
towards some if he doesnt give the fruits of karma to sinngers)

3. Would it be in order to compare law of gravity to law of karma (as given in examples of immutablity of law)
because (a) law of gravity works on physical objects (smoke from fire doesnt come down notwithstanding
any gravitational pull) and the law of gravity gives instant results, unlike law of karma which may take
eons to mature.

4. If retribution is necessary to punish sinners, why does Ishwara wait for eons to dish out the punishment? 
Does that mean we can get out of the rut by good behaviour in future and realising the earlier folly of sins
and making necessary amends.

5. If law of karma is such a cut and dry propisition, why does Ishwara maintain that tattva exclusively in his
hand (as stated in various hymns "punya-apunya phalaprada")

Can the learned members clarify my doubts, please

narayan
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Praveen | 4 Jun 2008 18:34
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Re: law of karma

praNAm all,

Hari Om, Narayan-ji,

Let me attempt to express my understanding, though karma and
karmaphala themselves are complicated and involved topics.

On Wed, Jun 4, 2008 at 9:06 PM, narayan iyer <z1e1b1r1a@...> wrote:

>
> 1. Does the phala-sutras of many stotras, saharasnamams, stuties etc. exaggerate 100% that sins will be
expunged if the stotras etc. recited with bhakti, when the fact is law of karma is inexorable.

i) It could be seen to mean removal of pravRtti to sin more.
ii) Even if sins are not expunged completely, the effect of sins are reduced.
iii) Even if the effects are not reduced completely, the development
of bhakti reduces the feel of the resultant phala.

>
> 2. Does Hindu dharma subscribe to retribution (because it is said that Ishwara will be otherwise partial
towards some if he doesnt give the fruits of karma to sinngers)

Yeah, hence the need for parihAra, stotras, japA, etc.

>
> 3. Would it be in order to compare law of gravity to law of karma (as given in examples of immutablity of law)
because (a) law of gravity works on physical objects (smoke from fire doesnt come down notwithstanding
any gravitational pull) and the law of gravity gives instant results, unlike law of karma which may take
eons to mature.
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shyam_md | 4 Jun 2008 19:56
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Re: law of karma

1. Does the phala-sutras of many stotras, saharasnamams, stuties etc. exaggerate 100% that sins will be
expunged if the stotras etc. recited with bhakti, when the fact is law of karma is inexorable.
******
The chanting of these stotras itself is another karma if done with devotion and diligence - the fruit of
which will be a partial neutralization of the effects of prior bad actions.
No amount of karma can ever wipe off the entire slate of accumulated karmas - jnAna alone is capable in that regard.
*******
2. Does Hindu dharma subscribe to retribution (because it is said that Ishwara will be otherwise partial
towards some if he doesnt give the fruits of karma to sinngers)
*******
Yes and no. Hindu dharma lays more emphasis on forgiveness than on retribution.  The mind that simmers with
thoughts of retribution, howsoever justifiable, destroys itself first. Ishwara can be quietly
entrusted with the task without my seeking or 'enabling' it!
*******
4. If retribution is necessary to punish sinners, why does Ishwara wait for eons to dish out the punishment? 
Does that mean we can get out of the rut by good behaviour in future and realising the earlier folly of sins
and making necessary amends.

5. If law of karma is such a cut and dry propisition, why does Ishwara maintain that tattva exclusively in his
hand (as stated in various hymns "punya-apunya phalaprada")
*********
Ishwara is not other than His very Order. The very Order - everperfect blesses us with its results - pleasant
or unpleasant - either way its a blessing alone coming as it does from the Order that is Ishwara alone.
Time it takes to fructify is relative - if you consider our entire lifetime is as transient as a flash of
lightning then you realize that we face our karmaphalas sooner than we may perhaps like!
In this context the One Deity who best represents duritA is Shani Bhagawan(born of Surya - Brahman and
Chaya- Maya/AvidyA!!) and he is symbolically personified with a limp showing how slow_moving He is!
****** 

PraNAms
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