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Annapureddy Siddhartha Reddy | 1 Dec 2006 03:48
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Re: Ishvara in advaita vEdAnta

praNAm.h shrI Kathirasan,

>
> Siddharthaji, you have made a very good point. Shankara does not clearly
> distinguish Ishvara from Brahman. In fact, at times Ishvara is also
> taken to be Hiranyagarbha. And Nirguna Brahman as well. Om.

Thanks for pointing this.

praNAm.h shrI Amuthan,
      I will make a few observations and rest my case. I agree with you that
the arguments are becoming pretty repetitive. Thanks for the pointer on the
bR^ihadAraNyaka upaniShat.h bhAShya.

> let me mention at the outset that the dialogues with svAmi
> chandrasekhara bhArati that you  quoted does not contain anything in
> it that contradicts what i said.

Let's see if that is the case. Here are some assertions I am making:
-- nirguNa brahma is the substrate for the nAmarUpa, and is untouched by the
nAmarUpa (exactly like the snake and rope analogy). Thus, nirguNa brahma has
no name and form.
-- Ishvara (at least the kind you speak of) has some name and form
(presumably many such forms like shrI mahAviShNu or shrI sadAshiva. As I
mentioned earlier, I am not particular about the exact form(s).)
-- hiraNyagarbha has some name and form. His form comprises the entire
cosmos.
Let me know if you disagree with any of the above.

Now, given the above and the article on Sandhya worship, there are two cases
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jiva das | 1 Dec 2006 07:07
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Does Shankarana speak of <pauruSa>?

In the Mumukshu- and Utpatti-Prakaranas of Yoga Vasishtha, the anonymous author teaches <pauruSa>
Paurusha as an antidote to Kismet, Fate, and all our other excuses.  The term is obviously a protraction of
<puruSa>, "Manhood" or "Personality", even perhaps "Citizenship" as <yo vazati puri>. 

YV does not much mention this notion of free-will activity in the later prakaranas. 

In the YV <pauruSa> is presented as the antidote to Daiva Fate, Niyati Necessity, and the like. 

Does Shankara speak of "paurusha"? And where would I look? 

I would give gokotis for lots of references. 

You great vedantis are my only hope.

 
saMtoSaH paramo lAbhaH sat-saGgaH paramA gatiH | 
vicAraH paramaM jJAnaM zamo hi paramaM sukham [Yoga Vasishtha 2.16.19] 
   = Contentment is the highest gain, Good Company the highest course, Enquiry the highest wisdom, and Peace
the highest enjoyment.
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/vasishtha/

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jiva das | 1 Dec 2006 08:42
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More on Paurusha

<mahA-rAmAyaNa-yoga-vAsiSTha> dwells most on this <pauruSa> "Paurusha" in the 8th Canto of the
Mumukshu-Prakarana. Here the Muni Vasishtha the Supreme replies to the young melancholic prince Rama's
compaints about Daiva and Niyati with his antidote of <pauruSa>. He sums up his view in 

   mUDhaiH praklpitaM daivaM tat parAste kSayaM gataH | 
   prAjJAs tu pauruSArthena padam uttamatAM gatAH || 2 | 8 ||

"When fools imagine Daiva Fate, thereupon they're in destruction; 
 the wise make use of Paurusha Power to attain the highest state." 

or again he says rather boastfully, 

   asmAbhir aparai rAma puruSair munitAM gataiH | 
   pauruSeNaiva saMprAptA ciraM gagana-gAmitA || 2 | 21 || 

"As for us, Rama, when a Purusha Person takes up the Muni business, by exercising his Paurusha Personality,
he gets a long life as a Gagana-gamin Sky-Rover"

I just reiterate my prevous request. 

I would like the views of you wise Vedantis about <pauruSa>.

jd

 
saMtoSaH paramo lAbhaH sat-saGgaH paramA gatiH | 
vicAraH paramaM jJAnaM zamo hi paramaM sukham [Yoga Vasishtha 2.16.19] 
   = Contentment is the highest gain, Good Company the highest course, Enquiry the highest wisdom, and Peace
the highest enjoyment.
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/vasishtha/
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Siva Senani Nori | 1 Dec 2006 09:43
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Re: Does Shankarana speak of <pauruSa>?

Dear Sri Jiva Dasji

Once we realise that Vasishtha (who is the author of Yoga Vasishtham as per tradition, and definitely the
purported author) uses paurusham as action of man, every reference of Sri Sankara to karma is talking
about the same thing as Vasishtha's paurusham.

To my understanding, the main teaching of vAsishtham is that paurusham or purusha prayatnam is more
powerful than daivam. In fact, it is said "na devah puNDarIkAksho na ca devastrilocana"  in 6(second
part).29.118 (puNDarIkAksha is not god, nor is trilocana - by Isvara to Vasishtha) and daivam - action of
god - is roundly rejected.

2.8.16 mUDhaih prakalpitam daivam tatparAste kshayam gatAh
           prAj~nAstu paurushArthena padamuttamatAm gatAh

(daivam - action of god - is created by the foolish, and those who believe in it decay; the well-learned
attain high stature by their own efforts)

The usage of paurusham needs to be seen in the above context. paurusham is a simple secondary derivative of
purusha. Here purusha is man, and paurusham is action of man. Just like vedas are held to be apaurusheya,
karma - prAktana or adyatna - is entirely paurusham.   

The overall message is: "Spring unto Action! That is the only way you can change your fate!". 

To amplify the usage of paurusham by Vasishtha, I will quote a few more slokas from Sri Roddam Narasimha (of
IISc, Bengaluru)'s compilation of 150 or so select verses from the Yoga Vasishtham "Verses for the
Brave": (unfortunately, I do not have his translation handy, and the list has to suffer my much inferior translation)

2.4.17 prAktanam caihikamceti dvividham viddhi paurusham 
           prAktano'dyatanenASu purushArthena jIyate
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Siva Senani Nori | 1 Dec 2006 10:32
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Re: More on Paurusha

The message of YV is not supposed to be inimical to Advaita or Vedanta, generally speaking. At various
places in YV, it is said that deva is cinmAtra (devah ... cinmAtramiti viSrutah, 3.7.2); rational
contemplation is recommended (ko'ham? kathamayam doshah samsArAkhya upAgatah? nyAyeneti parAmarSo
vicAreti kathyate, 2.14.50) manas is everything (manomAtramato viSvam, 3.3.25; manah kartr mano
bhoktr, 3.115.25; mano hi purushastasmAddaivam nAstiti niScayah, 2.9.18); j~nAnam is the means to
mukti (samsArottaraNe jantorupAyo j~nAnameva hi, 2.10.22) - all of which fit reasonably within the
Advaita frame-work, using the proper frame of reference.

There are differences too: Vasishtha seems to hold that this world is consciousness (cinmAtram cetanam
viSvam, 3.7.6) whereas Advaita teaches that the world is an illusion (jaganmithyA); and where Sri
Sankara clearly says that Karma does not lead to mukti, Vasishtha's message seems to be that Action is
everything. And while Karma largely relates to yaj~nas etc. for Sri Sankara, paurusham seems to be more of
worldly effort to Vasishtha.

My understanding of elders' advice is that while YV gives practical advice, and a guide to proper behaviour
in the world, Advaita teaches the ultimate truth.

While other vedantins (dvaitins, viSishTAdvaitins etc.) would definitely find certain portions entire
objectionable such as the assertion that deva is not puNDarIkAksha or trilocana, broadly YV represents a
fresh interpretation of sanAtana dharma with reference to the melancholy prince, and its advice is
properly contrasted with the other famous episode of the melancholy prince discovering enlightenment:
siddhArtha becoming the Buddha.

Senani

----- Original Message ----
From: jiva das <jivadas3@...>
To: advaita-l <at> lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2006 1:12:29 PM
Subject: [Advaita-l] More on Paurusha
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Ramesh Krishnamurthy | 1 Dec 2006 11:27
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Re: More on Paurusha

Namaste Siva Senani garu,

I have not studied the YV is much detail, but my understanding has
always been that YV is highly recommended by most teachers in the
advaita-vedAnta tradition. Vidyaranya in particular quotes the Laghu
YV very frequently in his jIvanmuktiviveka. Ramakrishnan has in the
past mentioned that the Sringeri acharya-s strongly recommend the YV,
to the extent of saying that samyag-jnAna can be obtained by studying
the YV.

On 01/12/06, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani@...> wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>At various places in YV, it is said that deva is cinmAtra (devah ...
cinmAtramiti viSrutah, 3.7.2); rational contemplation is recommended
(ko'ham? kathamayam doshah samsArAkhya upAgatah? nyAyeneti parAmarSo
vicAreti kathyate, 2.14.50) manas is everything (manomAtramato viSvam,
3.3.25; manah kartr mano bhoktr, 3.115.25; mano hi
purushastasmAddaivam nAstiti niScayah, 2.9.18); j~nAnam is the means
to mukti (samsArottaraNe jantorupAyo j~nAnameva hi, 2.10.22) - all of
which fit reasonably within the Advaita frame-work, using the proper
frame of reference.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

** Agree totally with the above.

----------------------------------------
>>There are differences too: Vasishtha seems to hold that this world
is consciousness (cinmAtram cetanam viSvam, 3.7.6) whereas Advaita
teaches that the world is an illusion (jaganmithyA); and where Sri
Sankara clearly says that Karma does not lead to mukti, Vasishtha's
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Jaldhar H. Vyas | 2 Dec 2006 02:42
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Re: More on Paurusha

On Fri, 1 Dec 2006, Ramesh Krishnamurthy wrote:

> Also, I am surprised by your statement that "karma largely relates to
> yaj~nas etc for Sri Sankara". If that is the case, there is no point
> in talking about karmaphala for any other action. I dont think that is
> the case at all. Rather karma refers to all actions, whether performed
> on the basis of shaastraic injunctions or otherwise. In fact your
> statement above is not internally consistent. If karma means only
> yaj~na-s for Sri Sankara, then saying that "karma does not lead to
> mukti" only implies that one should stop doing yaj~na-s. Why then the
> whole emphasis on renouncing the family & all possessions and taking
> up sannyAsa? All one needs to do is to stop doing yaj~na-s. Certainly,
> the framework of duties & actions prescribed by tradition & the
> shaastra-s extends to much more than just yaj~na-s. And this entire
> framework has to be renounced when one is ready for it.
>

Exactly.  Shankaracharya following the Mimamsakas stresses yajna because 
yajna is the archetype, the paradigm for karma.  For the purposes of 
philosophical reasoning, one particular form of karma is talked about but 
you are supposed to extrapolate from that to _all_ forms of karma.

--

-- 
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar@...>
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jiva das | 2 Dec 2006 05:49
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Chittam and Manas &c, defs:

I believe that Shankara made a note about the quadri-form <mano-buddhi-cittAhaMkAra> as being fourfold
like the <karpaNa>s of a quarter-dollar, not like the legs of a cow.Manas is one part of the quaternity; but
manas also contains buddhi-cittam-ahaMkAra.

Ramana has somewhere mentioned this, but he makes Chittam the included part. 

How would you distinguish manas buddhi chittam and ahaMkAra in definitions? 

I myself see manas as the Hard Drive of the computer. 

Buddhi is the Software. If the Manas knows an apple, Buddhi finds distinctions like redness, roundness,
tartness, and crispness. 

Chittam, as I read it, provides a preference about how sweet it is. Isherwood, in his co-translation with
Prabhavananda of VCh, calls it "the Affective faculty": a western psychological term worth thinking about.

And there is ahaM-kAra, the "I-Form", as a-kAra is the form of the letter "a".

I would love to hear the views of you mahAvedAntinaH about these simple terms.

I touch your feet.

jd

saMtoSaH paramo lAbhaH sat-saGgaH paramA gatiH | 
vicAraH paramaM jJAnaM zamo hi paramaM sukham [Yoga Vasishtha 2.16.19] 
   = Contentment is the highest gain, Good Company the highest course, Enquiry the highest wisdom, and Peace
the highest enjoyment.
http://ca.groups.yahoo.com/group/vasishtha/
(Continue reading)

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Amuthan | 2 Dec 2006 06:07
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Re: Chittam and Manas &c, defs:

On 12/2/06, jiva das <jivadas3_at_yahoo.ca> wrote:
> How would you distinguish manas buddhi chittam and ahaMkAra in definitions?

please see shrI vidyAsha~Nkar's reply to a similar question,
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2005-May/015317.html

-- amudan.
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Jaldhar H. Vyas | 2 Dec 2006 06:37
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Bhishmas motives and Krshna Bhagavans reorientation of Dharma

Today Margashirsha Shukla 11 was Gita Jayanti, the anniversary of the day
when at the onset of the war between the Pandavas and their cousin
brothers, the Kauravas, Arjuna the Pandava was taught the path to moksha
by Krshna Bhagavan.  (Hence another name for the day is Mokshada Ekadashi.)

The Bhagavad Gita is part of the epic called Mahabharata.  The Mahabharata
is divided into 100 minor books called parvanas which are grouped into 18
major books called mahaparvanas.  The Gita is the majority but not the
entirety of the Gita parvana which is part of the Bhishma mahaparvana.

Recently there was some discussion on this list about Bhishma, the
great-uncle and patriarch of both the Pandavas and Kauravas and why he
ended up fighting on the Kaurava side despite the obvious justice (and his
personal sympathies) for the Pandava cause.  I think the answer to this
can be found in the Gitaparvan.

The Gitaparvan begins with Sanjaya returning from the field of battle to
tell his master Dhrtarashtra (the father of the Kauravas) that Bhisma has
fallen in battle.  In grief and shock Dhrtarashtra says:

praGYaparAyaNaM tajGYAnaM saddharmanirataM shuchim |
vedavedA~ngatattvaGYaM kathaM shaMsasi me hatam || 15.40 ||

"Steeped in wisdom and self-knowledge, sharp as a needle in the pursuit of
true Dharma, knower of the meaning of the Vedas and Vedangas, how can you
tell me he is killed?"

sarvAstravinayopetaM dAntaM shAntaM manasvinam |
hataM shAntanavaM shrutvA manye sheShaM balaM hatam || 15.41 ||
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