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Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian | 16 Nov 2006 23:12
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Re: Sankara on "After GYAna" (was Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 1...)

Good post. In any case, even a niyama vidhi implies avoidance of an
action, and that implies an assumption of a doer who *opts* not act.
Niyama vidhi is not compatible with the teory that there is only
brahman "after" brahma-j~naana. You cannot impose a niyama-vidhi on
the perfect aatman can you, it is already naishkarmya! Any which way
you lose.

Rama

On 11/16/06, S Jayanarayanan <sjayana@...> wrote:
> --- bhaskar.yr@... wrote:
>
> [..]
>
> > KJ prabhuji:
> >
> > I had already quoted Sankara's Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashya a
> > couple of times before. Here it is again:
> >
> > bhaskar :
> >
> > prabhuji I am requesting you to parallelly quote shankara bhAshya
> > also
> > while exploring the JMV...it is not on one instance live above...at
> > every
> > stage of your presentation of JMV if possible quote shankara
> > bhAshya also
> > from prasthAna traya...as said above, that would help us a lot to
> > understand shankara's stand on these issues...Hope you would take
> > care of
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Venkata Subramanian | 17 Nov 2006 05:35
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Re: Sankara on "After GYAna" (was Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 1...)

can you then say Karthik why the same Acharya says in the Mundaka Bhashya that after the Samyag Gnana,
nothing more is to be done  (see his Bhashya on Para Apara Vidya) Yatha avidya vishaye............................

S Jayanarayanan <sjayana@...> wrote:
  --- bhaskar.yr@... wrote:

[..]

> KJ prabhuji:
> 
> I had already quoted Sankara's Brihadaranyaka Upanishad Bhashya a
> couple of times before. Here it is again:
> 
> bhaskar :
> 
> prabhuji I am requesting you to parallelly quote shankara bhAshya
> also
> while exploring the JMV...it is not on one instance live above...at
> every
> stage of your presentation of JMV if possible quote shankara
> bhAshya also
> from prasthAna traya...as said above, that would help us a lot to
> understand shankara's stand on these issues...Hope you would take
> care of
> this.
> 
> As far as 1.4.7 of BU is concerned, we have had enough discussions
> on this
> issue earlier in this same list...
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RAMESH RAMANAN | 17 Nov 2006 06:01
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Re: Sankara on "After GYAna" (was Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 1...)

Dear all,

  Thanks for the post. I think this explains why even Sri Abhinava Vidyatheertha Mahaswami says that it is
possible for one to fall from spiritual heights even after attaining nirvikalpa samadhi once. He
repeatedly says that one ought to continue practising Nirvikalpa samadhi to ensure steady
establishment in truth.He also says that he had personally seen a person fall badly after attaining
Nirvikalpa Samadhi. I think it is given in the Yoga and Enlightenment book published by Sringeri Shankara
matham. Pranaams, Ramesh Ramanan.

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S Jayanarayanan | 17 Nov 2006 06:04
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Re: Sankara on "After GYAna" (was Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 1...)

--- Venkata Subramanian <venkat_advaita@...> wrote:

> can you then say Karthik why the same Acharya says in the Mundaka
> Bhashya that after the Samyag Gnana, nothing more is to be done 
> (see his Bhashya on Para Apara Vidya) Yatha avidya
> vishaye............................
> 

Simple - he's referring to GYAna after it is steady.

To point to a hundred shrutis that state that nothing needs to be
done after GYAna is like preaching to the choir, because that is
easily interpreted to be the GYAna of the sthitapraGYa, as opposed to
the GYAna of the GYAnimAtra.

-Kartik

 
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Amuthan | 17 Nov 2006 07:10
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Re: Sankara on "After GYAna" (was Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 1...)

namo nArAyaNAya!

On 11/17/06, Ramakrishnan Balasubramanian
<rama.balasubramanian_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> ... In any case, even a niyama vidhi implies avoidance of an
> action, and that implies an assumption of a doer who *opts* not act.
> Niyama vidhi is not compatible with the teory that there is only
> brahman "after" brahma-j~naana. You cannot impose a niyama-vidhi on
> the perfect aatman can you, it is already naishkarmya! ...

the very fact that AchArya instructs "...sAdhanabalAvalambanena
Atmaj~nAnasmRtisantatiH niyantavyA bhavati" implies that an option
exists. true, niyama vidhi cannot be imposed on the Atman, but nothing
prevents it from being recommended for a j~nAnimAtra.

just to clarify, since a time of acquisition is mentioned for
Atmaj~nAna ("samyajj~nAnaprAptAvapi..."), it follows that this
Atmaj~nAna is a chittavRtti, though in this case the buddhi assumes
the form of the self (brahmAkAra). since it is a buddhivRtti which has
newly arisen, it cannot (for a j~nAnimAtra) immediately destroy
samskArAs which exist from time immemorial (as explained in the quoted
BUBh). what this means is that the ahaMkAra (in the case of a
j~nAnimAtra) doesn't always remain akhaNDAkAra, but tends to
associates with the mind and body by force of habit. the moment this
happens, (theoretically) the brahmavit is subject to either niyama or
parisa~NkhyA vidhi (but certainly not apUrva vidhi). but this 'vidhi'
is more of a recommendation than a vidhi proper, NOT because the Atman
is beyond any vidhi, but because there exist uttamAdhikArIs for whom
sadyomukti is possible immediately after the rise of samyajj~nAna.
thus, the 'fact' that the Atman is not subject to any vidhi is not a
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Amuthan | 17 Nov 2006 10:05
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Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 2 (TheCaseof YAGYavalkya)

namo nArAyaNAya!

On 11/16/06, S Jayanarayanan <sjayana_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> There are some statements in Sankara's BSB that speak of  mithyA
> GYAna remaining for "sometime" even for a Brahmavit. For example, BSB
> 4.1.15:
>
> akartR^i AtmabodhaH api hi mithyAGYAnabAdhanena karmANi ucchinatti .
> bAdhitamapi tu mithyAGYAnaM dvicandraGYAnavat.h saMskAravashhAt.h
> ka~NcitkAlam.h anuvartata eva .
>
> "The knowledge of the Self (Atmabodha) destroys Karmas by sublating
> mithyAGYAna. EVEN AFTER BEING SUBLATED, MITHYAGYANA CONTINUES FOR A
> SHORT WHILE OWING TO PAST SAMSKARAS."

since the mithyAj~nAna mentioned here is dvichandraj~nAnavat, i'm not
sure if it has the same implications as that of the BUBh you quoted
earlier (yadyapyevaM... niyantavA bhavati).

in the context of the BUBh, it is clear that even after the rise of
samyagj~nAna, traces of avidyA remain for some brahmavit-s since a
continuous recollection of Atmaj~nAna along with tyAga, vairAgya etc.
(nididhyAsana in short) is recommended for it's cessation. however, in
the BSB you have quoted above, the presence of the term
'dvichandraj~nAnavat' seems to suggest that there is no avidyA left,
but only that there is an 'appearance' of duality. thus, the j~nAni
referred to here has no necessity to do even activities like
nididhyAsana since the knowledge of the mithyAtva of duality is
definitely present. interpreted this way, the above BSB passage refers
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S Jayanarayanan | 17 Nov 2006 18:22
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Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 2 (TheCaseof YAGYavalkya)

--- Amuthan <aparyap@...> wrote:

> namo nArAyaNAya!
> 
> On 11/16/06, S Jayanarayanan <sjayana_at_yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > There are some statements in Sankara's BSB that speak of  mithyA
> > GYAna remaining for "sometime" even for a Brahmavit. For example,
> BSB
> > 4.1.15:
> >
> > akartR^i AtmabodhaH api hi mithyAGYAnabAdhanena karmANi
> ucchinatti .
> > bAdhitamapi tu mithyAGYAnaM dvicandraGYAnavat.h saMskAravashhAt.h
> > ka~NcitkAlam.h anuvartata eva .
> >
> > "The knowledge of the Self (Atmabodha) destroys Karmas by
> sublating
> > mithyAGYAna. EVEN AFTER BEING SUBLATED, MITHYAGYANA CONTINUES FOR
> A
> > SHORT WHILE OWING TO PAST SAMSKARAS."
> 
> since the mithyAj~nAna mentioned here is dvichandraj~nAnavat, i'm
> not
> sure if it has the same implications as that of the BUBh you quoted
> earlier (yadyapyevaM... niyantavA bhavati).
> 
> in the context of the BUBh, it is clear that even after the rise of
> samyagj~nAna, traces of avidyA remain for some brahmavit-s since a
> continuous recollection of Atmaj~nAna along with tyAga, vairAgya
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jiva das | 19 Nov 2006 02:13
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<bhavatitva> and <astitva>: request for help

I have a view that an <Asana> is where one <asti>, but where does one <bhavati>? These thoughts arose while I
was laboring over a <zloka> from the <mahA-rAmAyaNa-yoga-vAsiSTha>, in the sixth book, the first half of
the Nirvana-teaching. 

As a translator, I have a slightly different view than you philosophers. 

I would be happy to have any reflection you might make.

jd

 
y6.002.037
tRSNA-moha-parityAgAn nitya-zItala-saMvidaH |
puMsaH prazAnta-cittasya prabuddhA tyakta-citta-bhUH [37]

tRSNA- moha- parityAgAt nitya- zItala- saMvidaH 
puMsaH prazAnta- cittasya prabuddhA tyakta- citta- bhUH

having got rid of Trshna Desire and Moha Folly, 
daily cool-understanders, 
persons of controlled Chittam, 
awakened, firmly based in a detached Chittabhu, a renounced Chitta-land: a Ground of Chittam [cf.
“Ground of Being” in western philosophy]

In the invocation, the anonymous author of these three shlokas speaks of the triadic triplets of <jJAtA
jJAtaM tathA jJeyam> “Knower, Known, ... Knowable”, <kartA hetuH kriyA> “Doer, Cause,
Effect”;--and these two triads are worth your careful comparison--; but also between them is <draSTA
darzana-dRzya-bhUH> “Perceiver, Perception-Percept-Ground”.
   Note that it is not ‘Perceiver-Perception-Percept-Ground’. Even if it were, there would still be
<bhU>, the primal word of Sanskrit Bhvadi verbs. It is Earth, and earth, ground, soil. That is one of its
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S Jayanarayanan | 19 Nov 2006 05:33
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BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 3 (Non-contradiction with other Vedantic texts)

The previous posting considered the example of YAGYavalkya, who had
attained saMyak-aparoksha-BrahmaGYAna but not jIvanmukti. He had to
take up vidvatsannyAsa to eliminate his vAsanAs. In this posting,
some of the reasons for such cases will be considered, following the
jIvanmuktiviveka (JMV) of svAmI VidyAraNya (SV). This will
automatically lead to a reconciliation of the JMV with other Vedantic
texts.

Definition of jIvanmukti
------------------------

The JMV defines jIvanmukti in the opening chapter on vAsanAkshaya
[1]:

  atha jIvanmuktisAdhanaM nirUpayAmaH . 
  tattvaGYAnamanonAshavAsanAkshayaastatsAdhanam.h . ata eva 
  vAsishhTharAmAyaNa upashamaprakaraNasyAvasAne 
  'jIvanmuktasharIrANAm.h' (laghuyogavAsishhThe 28.116) 
  ityetasminprastaave vasishhTha Aha -

  vAsanAkshayaviGYAnamanonAshA mahAmate .
  samakAlaM chirAbhyastA bhavanti phaladAyinaH ..

  "Now we will discuss the means to jIvanmukti. The knowledge 
  of the Truth (tattvaGYAna), the annihilation of the mind 
  (manonAsha) and the effacement of latent tendencies
  (vAsanAkshaya) are the means of jIvanmukti; for this, 
  at the end of the part known as the upashama prakaraNa, 
  i.e. the chapter on perfect tranquility of the 
  VAsishhTha rAmAyaNa, VasishhTha says, while dealing with
(Continue reading)

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Amuthan | 19 Nov 2006 07:42
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Re: BrahmaGYAna and jIvanmukti - 3 (Non-contradiction with other Vedantic texts)

namo nArAyaNAya!

On 11/19/06, S Jayanarayanan <sjayana@...> wrote:
>   ...
>   "But most modern students, even with no previous practice of
>   meditation (upAsana), just out of curiosity, suddenly attempt to
>   attain enlightenment. They accomplish effacement of latent
>   impressions and the dissolution of the mind for the time being.
>   And with that also accomplish study, reflection and meditation
>   (shravaNa-manana-nididhyAsana) of VedAnta by repeated and vigorous
>   practice which in turn leads to the destruction of ignorance,
>   doubt and opposite ideas and consequently the knowledge of Truth
>   arises perfectly. ...
>  ...
>  ...
>  ...
> One doesn't have to look too far or hard to find those who study
> VedAnta without perfect qualifications. For this, a little
> introspection would suffice. Most of us in this list have not
> performed the Karma and upAsana that has been enjoined on us, but
> instead have begun studying VedAnta quite prematurely. SV's statement
> about "modern students" deviating from Sankara's prescribed
> rAja-mArga and taking to VedAnta out of "curiosity" applies very well
> to most (all?) of us in this list, if not to all modern students of
> VedAnta. Therefore, the relevance of the JMV in the modern context is
> hardly debatable.

but let us also not underestimate the 'modern students' mentioned by
svAmi vidyAraNya by equating them with the present day 'armchair
vedAntins' who study vedAnta as an intellectual exercise out of mere
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