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Will Parsons | 1 Oct 2011 01:14
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Re: Fw: Re: Names of Rachel's Second-Born Son

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On Thu, 29 Sep 2011 08:20:25 -0700, "Bryant J. Williams III" <bjwvmw <at> com-pair.net> wrote:
> Dear Jim,
> ...
> Below is an article from Dr. Claude Mariottini regarding the left-handedness
> of Benjamin.
> 
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> 
> http://claudemariottini.org/2011/09/29/left-handedness-in-the-hebrew-bible/

> Left-handedness in the Hebrew Bible by Claude Mariottini
> ...
> The following comments were taken from John Peter Lange, A Commentary on the
> Holy Scriptures, vol. 4 (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1871), 73-74.
> ...
> Jamin came to signify "good fortune," only because it designated the right
> side.  The inhabitants of the Holy Land had the sea (yam) on the right,
> hence called that side jamin, literally, "sea-side"; and the highlands of
> Aram on the left, hence semol, "the left." Different nations derived their
> expressions for right and left from conceptions peculiar to themselves.

I find this association of _jamin_ with "sea-side" phonetically suspect,
seeing that ימינ/yamin has no daghesh in the mem, whereas ימ/yam(m) does.
The presence of an underlying geminated mem in yam/yamm is corroborated by the
Arabic ﻳﻢ/yamm (with a tashdid, corresponding to Hebrew daghesh forte, over
the mim).  Also, I think it's most natural to orient (note the meaning of the
Latin etymon!) oneself by facing in the direction of the rising sun, by which
the "right" would be South, though it's certainly possible to consider the
direction of the highest point of the sun to be the reference point, in which
case the West would be the "right".
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Uri Hurwitz | 1 Oct 2011 04:53
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Yamin -South (was: Names of Rachel's etc.)

  
    Bravo, Will! You have hit on the right original
 meaning of 'Yamin' which is indeed 'south'. Think 
of the state of Yemen' and its location in the Arab
 world. This connotation is preserved in "Teiman' in BH.

   To elabortate the point a little -- the word for 
'left' in BH is, as we know, 'Smol'.  This very word 
in Arabic, 'Shimal', means North. In Heb. there is
 a silent Alef after the Mem. In Arabic the Alif serves
as the long vowel.

   These words exist in Semitics from before biblical
 times. They  are attested in the names 'sons of the north'
 and 'sons of the south' in Akkadian. The Akkadian name
 of the latter is “Bene-yamina”. Think of Binyamin in the HB.

  Now consider the location of  Binyamin in the northern
 kingdom of Israel -- this tribe is the southern most.

   That these terms may indeed have originated in the
 position of someone who prays to the sun in the morning is
 a reasonable assumption.

    Uri Hurwitz                             At present Wilmington, Vt. 

I find this association of _jamin_ with "sea-side" phonetically suspect,
seeing that ימינ/yamin has no daghesh in the mem, whereas ימ/yam(m) does.
The presence of an underlying geminated mem in yam/yamm is corroborated by the
Arabic ﻳﻢ/yamm (with a tashdid, corresponding to Hebrew daghesh forte, over
(Continue reading)

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jimstinehart | 1 Oct 2011 13:44
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Re: Yamin -South (was: Names of Rachel's etc.)


Uri Hurwitz:

You wrote:  “Now consider the location of Binyamin in the northern kingdom of Israel -- this tribe is the
southern most.”

I can’t quite tell from your post if you are asserting the following.  The author of chapter 35 of Genesis
lived long after the tribes in the northern kingdom of Israel had established their geographical
positions.  Working his way backward, he decided to create a story in the Patriarchal narratives that
would call Israel’s youngest son “Son of the South”, meaning that this fictional son of Jacob would
fictionally be the namesake of the southernmost tribe in the northern kingdom of Israel.  The fact that the
story has Benjamin born in the “west”, as opposed to Jacob’s other 11 sons being born in the
“east”, is not relevant.  The fact that YMYN means “right hand”, and Jacob’s “right
hand”/YMYN is portrayed in chapter 47 of Genesis as being critical in giving Joseph’s younger son
Ephraim a greater inheritance than Manasseh, is not relevant.  The fact that YMYN is never used in the
Patriarchal narratives to mean “south” is not relevant.

Is that what you are asserting?

Contrast my view, where an early Hebrew author is portraying Jacob as naming Rachel’s second-born son
“Son of the Right Hand”, meaning “My Heir Apparent”, with Benjamin being born right after
Jacob’s loss of both Joseph [Rachel’s firstborn son, who had just now disappeared, as told later as a
flashback in chapter 37 of Genesis] and Rachel, with Rachel being Jacob’s favorite wife.

Jim Stinehart
Evanston, Illinois

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George Athas | 1 Oct 2011 15:47
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Re: Yamin -South (was: Names of Rachel's etc.)

You're too rooted in modern cartography, Jim. Although Mesopotamia is actually east of Israel-Palestine
as we look at them on a map, it was still considered in ancient times to be to the north because that is the
direction you headed in order to get there. To the east is the Syrian-Arabian Desert, which is
uncrossable. So, if the name Benjamin is meant to be a reference to the birthplace of the youngest son in
contrast to the other sons, then 'Son of the South' is plausible.

Whether this is actually the case with Benjamin or not is another question. I'm merely trying to show a false
assumption in your previous post.

GEORGE ATHAS
Director of Postgraduate Studies,
Moore Theological College (moore.edu.au)
Sydney, Australia
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jimstinehart | 1 Oct 2011 16:22
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Re: Yamin -South (was: Names of Rachel's etc.)


Prof. George Athas:

You wrote:  “You're too rooted in modern cartography, Jim. Although Mesopotamia is actually east of
Israel-Palestine as we look at them on a map, it was still considered in ancient times to be to the north
because that is the direction you headed in order to get there. To the east is the Syrian-Arabian Desert,
which is uncrossable. So, if the name Benjamin is meant to be a reference to the birthplace of the youngest
son in contrast to the other sons, then 'Son of the South' is plausible.  Whether this is actually the case
with Benjamin or not is another question. I'm merely trying to show a false assumption in your previous post.”

What counts is how the concept of “east” is used in the Patriarchal narratives.  Your view of eastern
Syria as being “north” of Canaan is logical to modern Westerners, but that is not how the Hebrew author
of the Patriarchal narratives thought of geography.

The name BN-YMYN does not mean Jacob’s “Son of the South”.  The two huge problems with that analysis
are that (i) Benjamin is not Jacob’s “son of the south”, and (ii) the name “Ben-Jamin” does not
mean or imply “son of the south” [because YMYN/“right hand” does not mean “south” in the
Patriarchal narratives].  

First and foremost, and of most direct relevance to your point, please note that Jacob’s other 11 sons are
born in the “east”.   [“Then Jacob went on his journey, and came into the land of the people of the east
[QDM].”  Genesis 29: 1]  Jacob’s oldest 11 sons are born in Harran in Naharim/Mitanni, in eastern
Syria, a place that the Patriarchal narratives refer to as being the “east”.  [In an earlier
generation, Abraham also referred to eastern Syria as being “east”:  “But unto the sons of the
concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet
lived, eastward [QDM-H], unto the east [QDM] country.”  Genesis 25: 6]  Thus if Jacob were thinking
geographically in naming his 12th son (which he isn’t), Benjamin’s birth in Canaan would make him a
“son of the west”, not a “son of the south”.  

Secondly, in the two places in the Patriarchal narratives where the idiom of “right hand” and “left
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Isaac Fried | 2 Oct 2011 00:53

Re: Yamin -South (was: Names of Rachel's etc.)

The ending -IYN may be a plural marking. She called her son BEN-ONIY,  
the son of my youth, and he called him BINYAMIYN, the son of my  
(many) days. I estimate that RAXEL was about 5 years old (proof: she  
was still single) when YAAQOB first set eyes on her.

What an ancient Hebrew name harbors is a riddle. Rest assured (by me)  
that $IMON has nothing to do with 'hear', that LEVIY (EL-ABIY?) has  
nothing to do with 'accompany', and that $IM$ON has nothing to do  
with 'sun'.

Notice that the letter L (for EL?) is found in the names of all his  
four wives: Leah, raxeL, biLhah, ziLpah.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Oct 1, 2011, at 10:22 AM, jimstinehart@... wrote:

> The name BN-YMYN
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Will Parsons | 2 Oct 2011 03:50
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Re: Yamin -South

Hi Isaac,

On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:53:37 -0400, Isaac Fried <if@...> wrote:
> The ending -IYN may be a plural marking. She called her son BEN-ONIY, the
> son of my youth, and he called him BINYAMIYN, the son of my (many) days.

My impression is that -in as a plural marking is Aramaic, which surely would
not be likely in a Hebrew name at this early an age?

> I estimate that RAXEL was about 5 years old (proof: she was still single)
> when YAAQOB first set eyes on her.

I find that thought quite extraordinary - I realize that that in ancient times
people matured at an earler age than they do now, but I find the thought that
Jacob would be enraptured by a 5-year old, ... disconcerting to say the least.
And even then, would a 5-year old be entrusted with the task of taking care of
a flock of sheep on her own?

--

-- 
Will Parsons
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Yigal Levin | 2 Oct 2011 05:51
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Re: Yamin -South

Well, according to rabbinic calculations, Rebecca was 3 at the time of her
marriage to Isaac. Now if you insist on taking that literally, it is indeed
strange, to say the least.

Yigal Levin

-----Original Message-----

> I estimate that RAXEL was about 5 years old (proof: she was still single)
> when YAAQOB first set eyes on her.

I find that thought quite extraordinary - I realize that that in ancient
times
people matured at an earler age than they do now, but I find the thought
that
Jacob would be enraptured by a 5-year old, ... disconcerting to say the
least.
And even then, would a 5-year old be entrusted with the task of taking care
of
a flock of sheep on her own?

--

-- 
Will Parsons
_______________________________________________
b-hebrew mailing list
b-hebrew@...
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-hebrew
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Isaac Fried | 2 Oct 2011 07:40

Re: Yamin -South

1. Laban spoke Aramaic.

2. I recall that when I was about 8 years old, a bedouin girl used to  
come with a flock of some 20 goats to graze on a field near our house  
at the edge of town, at the foot of the hills of Lower Galilee. I am  
almost sure she was younger than I. I did not dare come close and  
only looked at her from a safe distance as I was afraid of her  
stones. I vaguely remember that from time to time she had an older  
boy with her. One day I saw her with three women. They motioned (they  
spoke no Hebrew and I spoke no Arabic) to me to come closer. I went  
to them and they felt my soft blond hair with their brown fingers and  
giggled heartily to each other. Then I run back home.

Isaac Fried, Boston University

On Oct 1, 2011, at 9:50 PM, Will Parsons wrote:

> Hi Isaac,
>
> On Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:53:37 -0400, Isaac Fried <if@...> wrote:
>> The ending -IYN may be a plural marking. She called her son BEN- 
>> ONIY, the
>> son of my youth, and he called him BINYAMIYN, the son of my (many)  
>> days.
>
> My impression is that -in as a plural marking is Aramaic, which  
> surely would
> not be likely in a Hebrew name at this early an age?
>
>> I estimate that RAXEL was about 5 years old (proof: she was still
(Continue reading)

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jimstinehart | 2 Oct 2011 06:38
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Re: Yamin -South


1.  Will Parsons, responding to Isaac Fried, wrote:  “I find that thought quite extraordinary - I realize
that that in ancient times people matured at an earler age than they do now, but I find the thought that Jacob
would be enraptured by a 5-year old, ... disconcerting to say the least.  And even then, would a 5-year old be
entrusted with the task of taking care of a flock of sheep on her own?”

We are never given a stated age for Rachel, but we know Jacob’s ages at all times, and we have Sarah’s ages
for an analogy, so here’s what’s most likely.

Rachel was age 13 in 12-month years when Jacob first laid eyes on her.  That’s just old enough for Rachel to
be “statuesque”, and old enough for Rachel to tend the flock.  Many females in the ancient world
married at age 13, which likely was when a female back then was considered to be her very most attractive. 
Leah, whom Jacob was supposed to marry, was the ideal age for marriage, age 15, being the age that Sarah and
Rebekah likely were when they married.  [Ages 13-15 were the normal ages for a female to be married in the
ancient world.  By contrast, males were usually older, and sometimes much older, when they married.] 
Jacob himself is age 27 [with this being Year 107, meaning 107 years in 12-month years after Abraham’s
birth].  Jacob was born in Year 80;  Leah was born in Year 92, and is 12 years younger than Jacob;  Rachel was
born in Year 94, and is 14 years younger than Jacob.   But Jacob has to wait 7 years before marrying them both,
in Year 113.  [Counting both Year 107 and Year 113, that’s 7 years (not 6 years).]  So at the end of Year 113,
Jacob awkwardly marries first Leah [due to trickery on the part of Laban, Leah and Rachel, but it’s the
right result], who is age 21, and then Rachel, who is age 19, with Jacob being age 33.  Leah is ages 22-28, in
Years 114-120 [a total of 7 full years, not 6 years], when she bears 7 children [counting Dinah as her 7th
child].  A few days or weeks after Dinah is born, Rachel finally bears Joseph in Year 120 [Year 12 tenfold],
when Rachel is age 26.  Jacob is age 40 at Joseph’s birth.  That is an old age in the ancient world for a man to
sire a child, and Joseph is said to be a child of Jacob’s old age.  Joseph is Jacob’s youngest child for
almost 10 years, before disappearing.

Everything is quiet on the childbearing front for almost 10 years.  Then both Leah and Rachel get pregnant
again.  Leah dies in childbirth in Year 129.5, with the child [whom Leah had hoped would be her 7th birth
son], being stillborn.  Leah is buried at the Patriarchs’ Hebron, which is why the family, which was
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