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Ralph Oborn | 1 Mar 2012 03:57
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Re: Re: Space Weather and GPS

 

You folks do realize there are differnt types of GPS units with
different features.....? :]

Ralph

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:30 PM, <tslaughter015-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> The GPS on my Blackberry is great in the car but in the woods it
> only shows that I am in a green area somewhere between roads.
> I know this is exceeding its functions and that ones more suited to
> would be a better bet.
> Compass and maps are very good imo.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> GPS is great for driving and if you have a portable one walking around
> a city but in the back country knowing how to use a compass and read a
> map is invaluable or they have no business to be in the back country.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman
> &lt;cara.lin <at> megaview.com.tw&gt; wrote:
>
>
>
>
> So far, I've met two people who have clearly demonstrated their ability
> to get lost in an open field.  One did just that, got turned around and
> couldn't remember the direction he was supposed to go--and this was in
> an open field on a mountain side...  The other got lost on a trail in
> the desert.  She went off the trail to ... when she got back to the
> trail, she couldn't remember which direction she was headed.
>
> I live in a city where the roads are almost as bad as those in DC
> (built
> on a circle) because the road layout is built on a fan.  When trying to
> get around this town, it is surprisingly easy to make a wrong turn.
>
> CL
>
> john mazurkewitz wrote:
> &gt;
> &gt; I find all this stuff about GPS, compass and such strange. I have
> &gt; wandered around in the woods for 55 of my 65 years and not gotten
> lost
> &gt; once. All one need,s is a good map and some idea what is out
> there. A
> &gt; good guide book help,s with the information. One should develop a
> &gt; sense of direction in there head at a early age.With this and some
> &gt; commend sense one can go any where and get Thur it, and enjoy
> there
> &gt; experience.        John Mazurkiewicz from Yosemite.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>

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    Jim Marco | 1 Mar 2012 11:26
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    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    Ralph,
    Ha, ha....yeah. And all sorts of weights. The handheld GPS units are a piece of high tech gear I generally do without. Catastrophic failures of some sort. Heavy, the lightest I know of weighs a 1/4 pound. A map and compass are really all I ever needed. Though I admit to being disoriented an two occasions. It happens rarely, though. I often head out somewhere and forget a compass and map. If someone sits me down somewhere for a bit, I can generally figure out about which way is north. There are a lot of subtle clues I can pick up from a forest. But, not knowing exactly where I am, doesn't bother me. Trails change too much. A blow down here, or, a fresh slide, forces these changes. Animals walk around any obstruction...so do I.
    With the solar weather as a thought, batteries, or other catastrophic failure, I tend to go with the most reliable method I know of. The map and compass is about it for me. When I was trying one I always had a map and compass anyway. So, in the interest of lighter weight, I dropped the GPS. I suppose I should get a new one and be more careful about looking at it. My brother has one that he uses religiously. It weighs about 9oz and has a lot of bells and whistles.
    My thoughts only . . .
    jdm

    James D. Marco
    302 Mary Lane
    Ithaca, NY 14850
    607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

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    From: Ralph Oborn <Ralph.oborn@...>
    Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS
    Date: 2012-03-01 02:57:28 GMT
    You folks do realize there are differnt types of GPS units with
different features.....?   :]

Ralph

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:30 PM,  <tslaughter015@...> wrote:
>
> The GPS on my Blackberry is great in the car but in the woods it
> only shows that I am in a green area somewhere between roads.
> I know this is exceeding its functions and that ones more suited to
> would be a better bet.
> Compass and maps are very good imo.
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> GPS is great for driving and if you have a portable one walking around
> a city but in the back country knowing how to use a compass and read a
> map is invaluable or they have no business to be in the back country.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 28, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman
> &lt;cara.lin@...&gt; wrote:
>
>
>
>
> So far, I've met two people who have clearly demonstrated their ability
> to get lost in an open field.  One did just that, got turned around and
> couldn't remember the direction he was supposed to go--and this was in
> an open field on a mountain side...  The other got lost on a trail in
> the desert.  She went off the trail to ... when she got back to the
> trail, she couldn't remember which direction she was headed.
>
> I live in a city where the roads are almost as bad as those in DC
> (built
> on a circle) because the road layout is built on a fan.  When trying to
> get around this town, it is surprisingly easy to make a wrong turn.
>
> CL
>
> john mazurkewitz wrote:
> &gt;
> &gt; I find all this stuff about GPS, compass and such strange. I have
> &gt; wandered around in the woods for 55 of my 65 years and not gotten
> lost
> &gt; once. All one need,s is a good map and some idea what is out
> there. A
> &gt; good guide book help,s with the information. One should develop a
> &gt; sense of direction in there head at a early age.With this and some
> &gt; commend sense one can go any where and get Thur it, and enjoy
> there
> &gt; experience.        John Mazurkiewicz from Yosemite.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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    tslaughter015 | 1 Mar 2012 13:34
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    Favicon

    Re: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    I thought I said as much in my post??

    Tony

    You folks do realize there are differnt types of GPS units with
    different features.....? :]

    Ralph

    On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 4:30 PM, <tslaughter015-YDxpq3io04c@public.gmane.org> wrote:
    >
    > The GPS on my Blackberry is great in the car but in the woods it
    > only shows that I am in a green area somewhere between roads.
    > I know this is exceeding its functions and that ones more suited to
    > would be a better bet.
    > Compass and maps are very good imo.
    >
    > Tony
    >
    >
    >
    > GPS is great for driving and if you have a portable one walking around
    > a city but in the back country knowing how to use a compass and read a
    > map is invaluable or they have no business to be in the back country.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On Feb 28, 2012, at 3:13 PM, Cara Lin Bridgman
    > &lt;cara.lin <at> megaview.com.tw&gt; wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > So far, I've met two people who have clearly demonstrated their
    ability
    > to get lost in an open field.  One did just that, got turned around
    and
    > couldn't remember the direction he was supposed to go--and this was in
    > an open field on a mountain side...  The other got lost on a trail in
    > the desert.  She went off the trail to ... when she got back to the
    > trail, she couldn't remember which direction she was headed.
    >
    > I live in a city where the roads are almost as bad as those in DC
    > (built
    > on a circle) because the road layout is built on a fan.  When trying
    to
    > get around this town, it is surprisingly easy to make a wrong turn.
    >
    > CL
    >
    > john mazurkewitz wrote:
    > &gt;
    > &gt; I find all this stuff about GPS, compass and such strange. I have
    > &gt; wandered around in the woods for 55 of my 65 years and not gotten
    > lost
    > &gt; once. All one need,s is a good map and some idea what is out
    > there. A
    > &gt; good guide book help,s with the information. One should develop a
    > &gt; sense of direction in there head at a early age.With this and
    some
    > &gt; commend sense one can go any where and get Thur it, and enjoy
    > there
    > &gt; experience.        John Mazurkiewicz from Yosemite.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > ------------------------------------
    >
    >
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    > +-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+Yahoo!
    Groups Links
    >
    >
    >

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    Jerry Goller | 1 Mar 2012 16:34
    Favicon

    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    No problem. I’m not an ultralight backpacker, I’m a lightweight backpacker. Anyway, it is part of my test setup.

     

    The panels are getting pretty light.

     

    Jerry

     

    http://www.backpackgeartest.org/: the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews on the planet.

     

    From: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org [mailto:BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Robin Joy
    Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 00:21
    To: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS

     




    Not really ultralight is it?



     


    On Feb 27, 2012, at 11:10 PM, "Jerry Goller" <jerrygoller-UFS7mITjnAiGkU+Z+ufpa2D2FQJk+8+b@public.gmane.org> wrote:

     

    This summer I'm going to try a small solar array on the top of my pack.

    All you really need is a map and to stay situational awareness.

    Jerry

    http://www.backpackgeartest.org/: the most comprehensive interactive gear
    reviews on the planet.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    [mailto:BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Eric Green
    Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 23:58
    To: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS

    --- In BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org, "Jerry Goller" <jerrygoller <at> ...>
    wrote:
    > In my complete set up I am the most likely to break or die. A field GPS
    unit is *much* tougher than I am....

    Not to mention that a GPS dying isn't the end of the world. Back in the days
    when GPS units were the size of small bricks and displayed merely latitude
    and longitude and certainly didn't have anything like auto-off functions to
    turn them off if you stopped moving, I forgot to turn it off one night and
    killed the last set of batteries. I shrugged and bushwacked my way back to
    the trail via compass and map (I'd camped off-trail a couple hundred yards
    from the only water source in a 10 mile radius to avoid disturbing the
    wildlife and get some privacy from it too), and followed the trail back to
    the trailhead. I never did get to complete that loop hike, sigh!

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    Jerry Goller | 1 Mar 2012 16:37
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    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    Same here. I just like to play with new gear and how to apply in the field

     

    Jerry

     

    http://www.backpackgeartest.org/: the most comprehensive interactive gear reviews on the planet.

     

    From: BackpackingLight <at> yahoogroups.com [mailto:BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of john mazurkewitz
    Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:06
    To: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    Subject: Re: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS

     




    I find all this stuff about GPS, compass and such strange. I have wandered around in the woods for 55 of my 65 years and not gotten lost once. All one need,s is a good map and some idea what is out there. A good guide book help,s with the information. One should develop a sense of direction in there head at a early age.With this and some commend sense one can go any where and get Thur it, and enjoy there experience.        John Mazurkiewicz from Yosemite.

     

    From: R&S Caffin <r.caffin-m/5qDMzAQIj3fQ9qLvQP4Q@public.gmane.orgu>
    To: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 1:08 PM
    Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

     

    > solar storms ... BIG solar storms.
    >'An avalanche of blackouts carried across continents by long-distance
    power lines could last for weeks to months as engineers struggle to
    repair damaged transformers. Planes and ships couldn’t trust GPS units
    for navigation. Banking and financial networks might go offline,
    disrupting commerce in a way unique to the Information Age'
    (<http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/22jun_swef2011/>).
    > Of course, the odds of a big solar storm whacking out technology is
    much, much lower than the odds of having a disabled GPS from battery
    failure or dropping it.

    A slight dissent over this. A careful user will not have battery problems
    with a GPS.

    However, the odds of a major solar storm knocking out parts of the grid and
    a lot of the GPS satellite fleet are close to a certainty. It WILL happen -
    maybe this solar maximum, maybe the next, maybe the one after it. We just
    don't know *when*. But it WILL happen. We have have such major events in the
    past before the continental grid and the GPS satellites, and they WILL
    happen again. They are called Coronal Mass Ejections - CMEs.

    The odds of the politicians ever doing something about it in advance are
    close to zero. Too expensive, too inconvenient, too upsetting to the next
    quarter's balance sheet. The odds of the now-privatised grid authorities
    doing anything about it are similar, as they are all constrained by the next
    quarter profit as well.

    Recovery? It could take many years. MANY years. Why?

    Such a storm would knock out many of the transformers on the continental HV
    grid. Burn them out. There are no reserve stocks of these muillion-dollar
    transformers, and few (if any) factories making them in the USA. They are
    imported, and overseas factories will be servicing their own countries
    first. Anyhow, a single factory probably has a production capacity of maybe
    20 such transformers a year: they are all hand-made by highly skilled
    technicians. It takes years to train a technician for this.

    Building a fleet of new GPS satellites would take even longer. First you
    need to get power to the factories.

    Cheers

     




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    Jerry Goller | 1 Mar 2012 16:49
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    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    I'm taking my cell phone. I loaded ViewRanger on it. Then the nice people at
    ViewRanger worked over Halfmile's maps and way points to load on my phone.

    Jerry

    http://www.backpackgeartest.org/: the most comprehensive interactive gear
    reviews on the planet.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    [mailto:BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Jim Marco
    Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2012 03:26
    To: BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
    Subject: RE: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS

    Ralph,
    Ha, ha....yeah. And all sorts of weights. The handheld GPS units are
    a piece of high tech gear I generally do without. Catastrophic failures of
    some sort. Heavy, the lightest I know of weighs a 1/4 pound. A map and
    compass are really all I ever needed. Though I admit to being disoriented an
    two occasions. It happens rarely, though. I often head out somewhere and
    forget a compass and map. If someone sits me down somewhere for a bit, I can
    generally figure out about which way is north. There are a lot of subtle
    clues I can pick up from a forest. But, not knowing exactly where I am,
    doesn't bother me. Trails change too much. A blow down here, or, a fresh
    slide, forces these changes. Animals walk around any obstruction...so do I.
    With the solar weather as a thought, batteries, or other
    catastrophic failure, I tend to go with the most reliable method I know of.
    The map and compass is about it for me. When I was trying one I always had a
    map and compass anyway. So, in the interest of lighter weight, I dropped the
    GPS. I suppose I should get a new one and be more careful about looking at
    it. My brother has one that he uses religiously. It weighs about 9oz and has
    a lot of bells and whistles.
    My thoughts only . . .
    jdm

    James D. Marco
    302 Mary Lane
    Ithaca, NY 14850
    607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

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    Eric Green | 1 Mar 2012 17:07

    Re: Space Weather and GPS

     



    --- In BackpackingLight-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org, Jim Marco <jdm27 <at> ...> wrote:
    > Catastrophic failures of some sort.

    GPS is more reliable than map and compass. Especially since magnetic north has been shifting around significantly these past forty years and maps rarely have the correct magnetic declination on them.

    > A map and compass are really all I ever needed.

    There's a lot of things we don't *need* that do make the experience much more pleasant. Our forefathers did this thing wearing woolen underwear with undifferentiated shoes (look that up if you're wondering what I'm talking about), and no toilet paper or any other way to remove debris from the rear other than whatever grasses and leaves you found to do that. It was an uncomfortable, scratchy, smelly experience. I'm not going to forego modern underwear, modern comfy trail shoes, and modern bum wipes just because our forefathers did without them, they simply make things so much more pleasant.

    > But, not knowing exactly where I am, doesn't bother me.

    Depends, I suppose, on how much time you have. Most folks have to work for a living thus need some degree of reliability on when they'll get where they're going. Few have the luxury of just picking up and going whenever they feel like it, then wandering around aimlessly (or with a general direction but no real urgency about it) until they arrive somewhere, expected or not.

    > I tend to go with the most reliable method I know of.

    GPS is the most reliable method of locating you on a map. Period. Modern GPS units do not suck their batteries down overnight if you leave them on -- they turn off. Modern GPS units do not break if you drop them -- they're in rubberized enclosures and bounce. Modern GPS units do not disintegrate if you get them wet -- they're in waterproof enclosures and will happily operate all day in the rain as raindrops keep falling on their head. The only thing that defeats GPS at all is thick tree coverage to the point you can't see even the tiniest bit of sky, but that defeats map and compass too, since you can't see a $#% <at> # thing in a forest that thick -- and the GPS has a built in compass so it at least can tell you what direction you're going, though I suggest turning it off and pulling out a com pass at that point to save batteries.

    I pre-date GPS. I know how to navigate with map and compass. I carry map and compass. I study my maps before going out to ascertain emergency methods for getting out if I manage to lose the map, which I have done from time to time when I didn't stash it back into the side pocket of my backpack securely enough (I'll note that I've *never* lost a GPS unit or had it fail to function in the past ten years, but have lost the map several times). I even know how to find my direction without a compass if the sun or stars are visible. I find that GPS tends to enhance my enjoyment because I can pay less attention to being constantly aware of my position on a map and more attention to the beautiful scenery around me. If that causes me to be disoriented and go astray, a couple of glances at the GPS ar e generally enough to get me going the right direction (note that every modern backpacking GPS has a built-in magnetic compass too, so once you see your position and the position of the trail that you breadcrumbed on the GPS before leaving home, you can turn back that direction and find the trail you lost without pulling out another instrument).

    End result: A more pleasant, less stressful stroll in the desert. (Where, I might add, getting disoriented is a bit more deadly than getting lost in a big friendly woods Back East where there's water around every turn).

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    Jim Marco | 1 Mar 2012 22:27
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    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    Eric,
    Hike your own hike. I have tried two, own one, and both have added nothing to my hike except added weight. I don't carry duplicates of anything except little LED's. A GPS is simply heavier, requires batteries (or charging,) and is subject to failures in deep gorges and heavy woods. I need a map and compass to back it up. Soo, I would rather bring a half days of food than a high tech wiz-bang. Yes, indeed the woods are quite friendly in the ADK's. Only the occasional Moose and bear are around to bother you. No grizzy's. Some areas do have rattle snakes, but they are far and few.
    My thoughts only . . .
    jdm

    James D. Marco
    302 Mary Lane
    Ithaca, NY 14850
    607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

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    From: Eric Green <eric@...>
    Subject: [BackpackingLight] Re: Space Weather and GPS
    Date: 2012-03-01 16:07:05 GMT
    
--- In BackpackingLight@..., Jim Marco <jdm27 <at> ...> wrote:
> Catastrophic failures of some sort. 

GPS is more reliable than map and compass. Especially since magnetic north has been shifting around
significantly these past forty years and maps rarely have the correct magnetic declination on them.

> A map and compass are really all I ever needed.

There's a lot of things we don't *need* that do make the experience much more pleasant. Our forefathers did
this thing wearing woolen underwear with undifferentiated shoes (look that up if you're wondering what
I'm talking about), and no toilet paper or any other way to remove debris from the rear other than whatever
grasses and leaves you found to do that. It was an uncomfortable, scratchy, smelly experience. I'm not
going to forego modern underwear, modern comfy trail shoes, and modern bum wipes just because our
forefathers did without them, they simply make things so much more pleasant.

> But, not knowing exactly where I am, doesn't bother me. 

Depends, I suppose, on how much time you have. Most folks have to work for a living thus need some degree of
reliability on when they'll get where they're going. Few have the luxury of just picking up and going
whenever they feel like it, then wandering around aimlessly (or with a general direction but no real
urgency about it) until they arrive somewhere, expected or not. 

> I tend to go with the most reliable method I know of.

GPS is the most reliable method of locating you on a map. Period. Modern GPS units do not suck their batteries
down overnight if you leave them on -- they turn off. Modern GPS units do not break if you drop them -- they're
in rubberized enclosures and bounce. Modern GPS units do not disintegrate if you get them wet -- they're in
waterproof enclosures and will happily operate all day in the rain as raindrops keep falling on their
head. The only thing that defeats GPS at all is thick tree coverage to the point you can't see even the
tiniest bit of sky, but that defeats map and compass too, since you can't see a $#% <at> # thing in a forest that
thick -- and the GPS has a built in compass so it at least can tell you what direction you're going, though I
suggest turning it off and pulling out a compass at that point to save batteries. 

I pre-date GPS. I know how to navigate with map and compass. I carry map and compass. I study my maps before
going out to ascertain emergency methods for getting out if I manage to lose the map, which I have done from
time to time when I didn't stash it back into the side pocket of my backpack securely enough (I'll note that
I've *never* lost a GPS unit or had it fail to function in the past ten years, but have lost the map several
times). I even know how to find my direction without a compass if the sun or stars are visible. I find that GPS
tends to enhance my enjoyment because I can pay less attention to being constantly aware of my position on a
map and more attention to the beautiful scenery around me. If that causes me to be disoriented and go
astray, a couple of glances at the GPS are generally enough to get me going the right direction (note that
every modern backpacking GPS has a built-in magnetic compass too, so once you see your position and the
position of the tra!
 il that you breadcrumbed on the GPS before leaving home, you can turn back that direction and find the trail
you lost without pulling out another instrument). 

End result: A more pleasant, less stressful stroll in the desert. (Where, I might add, getting disoriented
is a bit more deadly than getting lost in a big friendly woods Back East where there's water around every
turn).  

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    Dennis Phelan | 1 Mar 2012 22:59
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    Re: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    do you know there are 57 - now 58 posts on this topic?

    On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Jim Marco <jdm27-HmMyXyqgL2CVc3sceRu5cw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
     

    Eric,
    Hike your own hike. I have tried two, own one, and both have added nothing to my hike except added weight. I don't carry duplicates of anything except little LED's. A GPS is simply heavier, requires batteries (or charging,) and is subject to failures in deep gorges and heavy woods. I need a map and compass to back it up. Soo, I would rather bring a half days of food than a high tech wiz-bang. Yes, indeed the woods are quite friendly in the ADK's. Only the occasional Moose and bear are around to bother you. No grizzy's. Some areas do have rattle snakes, but they are far and few.

    My thoughts only . . .
    jdm

    James D. Marco
    302 Mary Lane
    Ithaca, NY 14850
    607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)


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    tslaughter015 | 2 Mar 2012 00:22
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    RE: Re: Space Weather and GPS

     

    You hike in some sweet country.

    Tony

    Eric,
    Hike your own hike. I have tried two, own one, and both have added
    nothing to my hike except added weight. I don't carry duplicates of
    anything except little LED's. A GPS is simply heavier, requires
    batteries (or charging,) and is subject to failures in deep gorges and
    heavy woods. I need a map and compass to back it up. Soo, I would
    rather bring a half days of food than a high tech wiz-bang. Yes, indeed
    the woods are quite friendly in the ADK's. Only the occasional Moose
    and bear are around to bother you. No grizzy's. Some areas do have
    rattle snakes, but they are far and few.
    My thoughts only . . .
    jdm

    James D. Marco
    302 Mary Lane
    Ithaca, NY 14850
    607-273-9132 (land), 607-220-9969(cell)

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