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Andreas Jung | 1 Feb 2005 07:30

Re: ZCatalog and Zope 2.8


--On Montag, 31. Januar 2005 20:20 Uhr +0100 Dieter Maurer 
<dieter <at> handshake.de> wrote:

>
> I am not with you with respect to "number of indexed objects"
> versus "size of the index". In fact *BOTH* as index specific
> (otherwise, it would not make any sense to list it in an index
> specific column).
>
> Maybe, a compromize would be to include both numbers?

I am currently working on a solution for all these issues on a dedicated 
2.8 branch.

Andreas
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Chris Withers | 1 Feb 2005 11:50
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Jim Fulton wrote:
> please respond here or on the z3-file list, 

Which list is this?

Chris

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Jim Fulton | 1 Feb 2005 12:14
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Chris Withers wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
> 
>> please respond here or on the z3-file list, 
> 
> 
> Which list is this?

z3-five, of course. :)

http://codespeak.net/mailman/listinfo/z3-five

Jim

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Christian Heimes | 2 Feb 2005 08:02
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Jim Fulton wrote:
> Originally, I had intended not to include any Zope 3 packages until
> Zope 2.9, however, Zope 2.8 has been delayed long enough that I think
> it makes sense to include some parts of Zope 3 sooner.  I also want
> to use some of the Zope 3 persistent code support, which depends on
> zope.interface to help get ZClasses working again.  I haven't decided
> which parts of Zope 3 should be included in Zope 2.8 and would like to
> get input.  If you have suggestions on what to include or exclude,
> please respond here or on the z3-file list, where I am also posting
> this message.

Zope 2.8 should be shipped with all stuff required for Five + some nice 
gimmicks like the import* helpers from utilities/.

zope.interface - Zope3 interfaces are much better than the zope2 stuff
zope.component - important for five
zope.i18n + zope.i18nmessage - especially the l10n is very useful, also 
gotcha is working on a way to translate MessageIds in Zope2's 
ZPublisher. See PlacelessTranslationService Z3MsgId branch (I can't 
remember the excact name)
zope.configuration - zcml is nice
zope.importtool - for importtool and importorder, please also include 
importchecker in ZOPE_HOME/bin. I like it :)
zope.schema

These modules are easy to add w/o shipping Zope2 with a full 
installation of Zope3. Much harder but even useful are modules from 
zope.app like adapter, apidoc, event or the widget stuff for zope.schema.

Personally zope.interface and zope.component are the most important and
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Martijn Faassen | 2 Feb 2005 10:32
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Sidnei da Silva wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 10:53:01AM -0500, Jim Fulton wrote:
> <snip>
> | I haven't decided
> | which parts of Zope 3 should be included in Zope 2.8 and would like to
> | get input.  If you have suggestions on what to include or exclude,
> | please respond here or on the z3-file list, where I am also posting
> | this message.
> 
> Whatever we have in Five right now seems like a good subset. I haven't
> felt need for much more than that anyways. We have:
> 
> - Adapters
> - Views
> - Menus
> - Some support for auto-generated forms
> 
> I think the main outstanding issue is interoperability between Zope 3
> and Zope 2 Page Templates, which is being investigated.
> 
> Someone correct me if I missed something.

But Five has no *need* of this stuff in Zope 2, and I suspect it'll only 
make our life harder. Either we'll be locked into a stale Zope 2.8 
version or we'll have to maintain compatibility with both Zope 3 
releases and Zope 2 releases..

If someone can package up the stuff needed for Five and nothing else and 
wrap it up as a Zope 2 product (that fiddles with the path), fine. 
That's only to make things more easily deployable. Right now the hard
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Martijn Faassen | 2 Feb 2005 10:35
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Jim Fulton wrote:
> Paul Winkler wrote:
>>
>> +1 on all of those from me. However, I will be satisfied with anything
>> that gets released as 2.8 sometime this year ;-)
> 
> 
> Absolutely.  The top priority, IMO, is getting 2.8 out as soon as
> we can.

Excuse me, but it seems bizarre to me that *if* the top priority is to 
get Zope 2.8 out the best way to go about it is to add a lot of features 
to it. The best way to get Zope 2.8 out is to feature freeze it and 
release it.

I recall hearing something about wanting to release Zope 2.8 as soon as 
possible before, and that was a year ago. Please excuse me of being 
skeptical this time around too.

Regards,

Martijn
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Martijn Faassen | 2 Feb 2005 10:38
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Re: Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Christian Heimes wrote:
> Jim Fulton wrote:
> 
>> Originally, I had intended not to include any Zope 3 packages until
>> Zope 2.9, however, Zope 2.8 has been delayed long enough that I think
>> it makes sense to include some parts of Zope 3 sooner.  I also want
>> to use some of the Zope 3 persistent code support, which depends on
>> zope.interface to help get ZClasses working again.  I haven't decided
>> which parts of Zope 3 should be included in Zope 2.8 and would like to
>> get input.  If you have suggestions on what to include or exclude,
>> please respond here or on the z3-file list, where I am also posting
>> this message.
>  
> Zope 2.8 should be shipped with all stuff required for Five + some nice 
> gimmicks like the import* helpers from utilities/.

I wish people much luck detaching the stuff required for Five from Zope 
3. I'm certainly not going to waste any time on doing so.

> zope.interface - Zope3 interfaces are much better than the zope2 stuff
> zope.component - important for five
> zope.i18n + zope.i18nmessage - especially the l10n is very useful, also 
> gotcha is working on a way to translate MessageIds in Zope2's 
> ZPublisher. See PlacelessTranslationService Z3MsgId branch (I can't 
> remember the excact name)
> zope.configuration - zcml is nice
> zope.importtool - for importtool and importorder, please also include 
> importchecker in ZOPE_HOME/bin. I like it :)
> zope.schema
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Chris Withers | 2 Feb 2005 11:28
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Martijn Faassen wrote:
> That's only to make things more easily deployable. Right now the hard 
> part is however detaching Zope 3 stuff from its dependencies 

Really? That's extremely disappointing :-(
The most important aim of Zope 3 from my POV was to be able to use as 
little or as much of it as you want, not suffer dependency hell as we do 
in Zope 2...

Chris

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Stephan Richter | 2 Feb 2005 12:02
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

On Wednesday 02 February 2005 05:28, Chris Withers wrote:
> Martijn Faassen wrote:
> > That's only to make things more easily deployable. Right now the hard
> > part is however detaching Zope 3 stuff from its dependencies
>
> Really? That's extremely disappointing :-(
> The most important aim of Zope 3 from my POV was to be able to use as
> little or as much of it as you want, not suffer dependency hell as we do
> in Zope 2...

Yes, that is true for packages in zope. However, zope.app was designed as the 
application server and has thus many dependencies among the packages in 
zope.app. Note that the srichter-blow-services branch will bring great relief 
to some of these dependencies. registration, component and site used to have 
circular imports, but in the branch they all have been merged into 
zope.app.component, with each module being independent of the others. For 
example, the registration code does not depend on the local site manager 
code.

Regards,
Stephan
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Martijn Faassen | 2 Feb 2005 12:35
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Re: Renamed the Zope package to Zope2 and including Zope 3 packages in Zope 2.8

Stephan Richter wrote:
> On Wednesday 02 February 2005 05:28, Chris Withers wrote:
> 
>>Martijn Faassen wrote:
>>
>>>That's only to make things more easily deployable. Right now the hard
>>>part is however detaching Zope 3 stuff from its dependencies
>>
>>Really? That's extremely disappointing :-(
>>The most important aim of Zope 3 from my POV was to be able to use as
>>little or as much of it as you want, not suffer dependency hell as we do
>>in Zope 2...
> 
> Yes, that is true for packages in zope. However, zope.app was designed as the 
> application server and has thus many dependencies among the packages in 
> zope.app. 

It's not entirely true for packages in zope either. If you try to 
extract one you'll likely pull in quite a few others. Detaching the 
dependencies is however easier.

Five has dependencies on zope.app, so to make Five use Zope 2.8 packages 
would require quite a bit of Zope 3 to be pulled in, or an awful lot of 
work to prevent it from being pulled in. Presumably only a few packages 
will be pulled into Zope 2.8 in practice, which means that Five will 
have to worry about packages from Zope 2.8 and packages from Zope X3 
proper, and possible weird combinations and interactions. Not something 
I'm looking forward to.

I wanted this (Zope 3 integration into Zope 2.x) about a year ago, but
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