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David (Heller) Malouf | 2 Oct 2006 14:12
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Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)


On 9/29/06, tOM Trottier <tOM <at> abacurial.com> wrote:
Otherwise, I thing rollovers conceal rather than reveal.
Important info should be obvious, or reachable via a link.

Hi Tom,

Here is a great example of a good rollover.
The contact list in gmail that is on the left side. Rollover it and it shows
you details and gives you options about that contact.

You say if it is important, it should be revealed? What if it isn't AS
important?

Or in this case. What if part of the information (the contact name) is
relevant to the immediate context and you don't want the user to get
sub-contextual information by loosing the primary context of the information
they are looking at now? 

-- dave

--

-- 
David (Heller) Malouf
dave.ixd <at> gmail.com
http://synapticburn.com/ 

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David (Heller) Malouf | 2 Oct 2006 14:13
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Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)

i also want to add to (and agree w/ Ziya) by saying that the whole new web
paradigm shift and application design shift (looking at O2007 and the like)
is one based on context and discoverability.

This means that there is an assumption around modality in the systems we are
designing and that means that we cannot rely purely on presentation in a
single layer outcome to reveal all that we need. 

I would also state that we can't even rely on context modality as a sole
layering effect. The example sited of Mac Office 2004 has a lot of
contextual elements, but heck all those elements also require a lot more
discoverability in order to communicate what is behind them. 

The palette bar on the left for example is strewn with a ton of elements
that lead to even further depth beyond just the contextual queue.

-- dave

On 9/29/06, Ziya Oz <listera <at> earthlink.net> wrote:
Todd Warfel:

> Great design doesn't rely on tooltips.

Neither does it rely on wanton exposition.

The key word here is "rely." What exactly does it mean? What may be
extra/complementary for some users may turn out to be important/crucial for 
others, in a given context. (And I'm referring to rollover behavior in
general, not just tooltips or menus.) It's very easy to dismiss this by
saying, don't have a black box as an icon and reveal its purpose only on
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David (Heller) Malouf | 2 Oct 2006 14:13
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Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)

I think of tooltips as guiding "learnability".

I think it nearly impossible to come up with icons that are meaningful to
everyone.
Tooltips have reached the point of ubiquitous convention for many different
persona types (not all), so, using them to aid in learning what icons are
totally makes sense to me. 

In fact, there are way too many sites and software products that DON'T use
them when they really need them.

I understand what Todd is saying about not relying on them, but when I think
about where I use them, I can't imagine the system being learnable without
them. 

One way around that of course is to just use labels next to your actionable
icons, no?
And then give options to remove the labels later--ala browser toolbars.

I find that method though to be a bit heavy handed for applications that are
more transactional and interactive. I barely use the toolbar on my browser
except for one button (Back) and maybe the "Tab" button in Firefox though I
think I use <ctrl-T> more. Imagine the Word toolbar filled with labels under
or next to everything. It would be a mess. Even in the more elaborate
"ribbon" of Office 2007 (highly recommend people downloading this puppy and
playing with it) they can't put lables on everything. 

Anyway, to me tooltips are a part of good design, not a crutch of bad
design. Because good design of complex applications requires more than
intuition, it requires learning through discoverability.
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David (Heller) Malouf | 2 Oct 2006 14:14
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Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)

And what I'm saying is that the notion of "intuitive" has very severe
limitations and thinking of Tool Tips as a plan B is misleading.

I can't imagine a single icon I would put on a screen that I wouldn't want
to add a tool tip for where I didn't have an attached label, and I tried to
express why/where you can't have labels on every icon. 

-- dave

On 9/29/06, Todd Warfel <lists <at> toddwarfel.com> wrote:

On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:40 AM, David ((Heller)) Malouf wrote:

> I understand what Todd is saying about not relying on them, but
> when I think
> about where I use them, I can't imagine the system being learnable 
> without
> them.
>
> [...]
>
> Anyway, to me tooltips are a part of good design, not a crutch of bad
> design. Because good design of complex applications requires more than
> intuition, it requires learning through discoverability.

What I'm saying is that "great design" would use tooltips as a Plan B
– strive for an intuitive design that doesn't need them. They are
useful, but the design shouldn't depend on them.

Cheers!
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Todd Warfel | 2 Oct 2006 15:31

Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)


On Oct 2, 2006, at 8:13 AM, David ((Heller)) Malouf wrote:

> I understand what Todd is saying about not relying on them, but  
> when I think
> about where I use them, I can't imagine the system being learnable  
> without
> them.

I think they're appropriate as an aid to learnability (especially in  
complex systems), but I don't think the UI should depend on them.

BTW, we are advocates of using tooltips – can't think of an interface  
we've designed lately that doesn't use them. But we don't rely o them.

Cheers!

Todd R. Warfel
Partner, Design & Usability Specialist
Messagefirst | designing and usability consulting
--------------------------------------
Contact Info
Voice:    (607) 339-9640
Email:    todd <at> messagefirst.com
AIM:       twarfel <at> mac.com
Blog:      http://toddwarfel.com
--------------------------------------
In theory, theory and practice are the same.
In practice, they are not.
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Todd Warfel | 2 Oct 2006 18:01

Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)


On Oct 2, 2006, at 8:14 AM, David ((Heller)) Malouf wrote:

> And what I'm saying is that the notion of "intuitive" has very  
> severe limitations and thinking of Tool Tips as a plan B is  
> misleading.
>
> I can't imagine a single icon I would put on a screen that I  
> wouldn't want to add a tool tip for where I didn't have an attached  
> label, and I tried to express why/where you can't have labels on  
> every icon.

That's where there's a difference in approach and/or environment. In  
our work, we typically avoid icons and rely on labels and  
appropriately labeled action buttons. Whereas, in David's  
environment, I would think that icons play a significant part of the  
UI. David, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I won't say icons are a bad approach, sometimes they are absolutely  
appropriate. I'm not one to have black/white approaches to things - I  
lean towards relativity and balance.

There was a study done several years ago by a European firm if I  
recall correctly. The study was done internationally and studied a  
few hundred icons. They found that of the 250+ icons, only 10-12 had  
a universal understanding w/o labels. In short, the study suggested  
that if you use icons, you should accompany them by labels. So, the  
ideal situation is icon w/label. Unfortunately, we're often faced w/ 
less than ideal situations.
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David (Heller) Malouf | 2 Oct 2006 19:24
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Re: [Sigia-l] Rollover Question (Web 2.0)

I think of tooltips as guiding "learnability".

I think it nearly impossible to come up with icons that are meaningful
to everyone.
Tooltips have reached the point of ubiquitous convention for many
different persona types (not all), so, using them to aid in learning
what icons are totally makes sense to me.

In fact, there are way too many sites and software products that DON'T
use them when they really need them.

I understand what Todd is saying about not relying on them, but when I
think about where I use them, I can't imagine the system being
learnable without them.

One way around that of course is to just use labels next to your
actionable icons, no?
And then give options to remove the labels later--ala browser toolbars.

I find that method though to be a bit heavy handed for applications
that are more transactional and interactive. I barely use the toolbar
on my browser except for one button (Back) and maybe the "Tab" button
in Firefox though I think I use <ctrl-T> more. Imagine the Word
toolbar filled with labels under or next to everything. It would be a
mess. Even in the more elaborate "ribbon" of Office 2007 (highly
recommend people downloading this puppy and playing with it) they
can't put lables on everything.

Anyway, to me tooltips are a part of good design, not a crutch of bad
design. Because good design of complex applications requires more than
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Kyle Pero | 3 Oct 2006 20:40
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[Sigia-l] PHICHI Meeting, 10/17, 6pm, Product Design Case Studies!

**Apologies to those that have received this announcement more than once**

What: PHICHI October Meeting - Product Design Case Studies!

When:
Tuesday, October 17th
Refreshments & Networking: 6-6:30pm
Presentation: 6:30pm – 8ish

Where: UPenn Campus - exact room TBD

Summary:
Come and get a behind the scenes look into the actual process used to solve
design problems behind the creation of...

~QVC Active - Mike Madaio, Chief Internet Architect, QVC.com
The first US real-time two-way interactive TV shopping service. Viewers use
their remote control to make purchases in a real-time environment, just as
the product is being showcased on TV.

~Russound UNO-TSV Smart Color Touchscreen - Kyle Pero, Founding Principal,
Usable Interface
A touchscreen device that controls a multiroom entertainment system,
lighting and climate control. Users can easily decide what music they’d like
to play and what mood they want to set in different rooms in their home.

~In-Stadium seat-based ECommerce Platform - Bill Bulman, Partner,
MessageFirst
A kiosk-based Rich Internet Application that allows sports fans to purchase
concessions and merchandise from their seats. Fans feel closer to their
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Ziya Oz | 4 Oct 2006 05:13
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[Sigia-l] Design and Religion

Yes, I'm still on my meds. :-) Anyone know of a professional designer
(preferably with a current blog) who writes on religious themes, is
influenced by religion, has somehow integrated religion into his/her
approach to design/practice?

----
Ziya

Design is how it works.

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Davezilla | 4 Oct 2006 06:31
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Re: [Sigia-l] Design and Religion

On 10/3/06, Ziya Oz <listera <at> earthlink.net> wrote:
> Yes, I'm still on my meds. :-) Anyone know of a professional designer
> (preferably with a current blog) who writes on religious themes, is
> influenced by religion, has somehow integrated religion into his/her
> approach to design/practice?

Well, I'm an African priest in addition to being an IA. I am
definitely influenced by Ifa teachings and use the proverbs in
business meetings to make my points. Does that count?

-- 
Dave Linabury, Omolotiwa
Davezilla: http://davezilla.com/

"Ise Ori rani looni mon hi se o."
(Whatever job destiny assigns us, thus one does)
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http://iasummit.org/2006/posters.htm

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