Re: Question about Aida vs Seaside
Sure...I think best "out loud" around other people, so I hope you don't mind going "back and forth!"
I don't think I can call myself a compete Smalltalk "novice" anymore, though I still feel like it compared with everyone else out there. My programming experience is purely procedural: Assembly, VisualBasic, etc..., but I was always trying to do Smalltalk-ish stuff. It has taken me a LONG time to be able to do "useful work."
Also keep in mind that I COMPLETELY missed the web-programming movement while I was in the Army. I have NO experience with HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc, etc, etc...
With that in mind, I found Seaside challenging because it builds on your [pre-existing] web knowledge.
Aida, in my mind, is much "simpler" in this regard, or at least more "abstract." I could actually (for the most part) "figure it out" by browsing the classes and the WebDemoApp methods.
The idea of "naming conventions" confused me at first about Aida--you MUST have a domain object (MyObject) that is the domain model for your application (MyObjectApp). Starting and stopping your site is a bit rough, and styling your site can be confusing. I can change the style now, but am no good at CSS, so I am limited in what I can change.
For Squeak, Nicolas is doing some great Scriptaculous work (http://nico.bioskop.fr/). I found all the Ajax integration in Aida much easier to understand than in Seaside, where I just didn't have a clue what was going on. In fact, Ajax is buried at the bottom of the Aida framework, so it feels very much "built-in."
I the big reason I am using Aida is because it was "simple enough" for me. I always thought of myself as a "smart" programmer: I have a long-ago degree in Physics, and have been "programming" since I was 11. I do process improvement and Decision Support work at a hospital. But Seaside still escapes me because I am NOT a programmer, meaning I need to program to "get things done," not to write a "great program," and so Aida was a great choice for me because I could almost just sit down and get started, and Janko and the Aida community are VERY willing to help when you have a question. There are very few things I have wanted to do that they haven't been able to explain to me--usually within HOURS.
So...depending on what you are writing (I am working on basic business data-collection applications), and depending on how you feel about the CSS style guidelines, you can very quickly and read ably get many components up and running, nicely pre-wired to your domain model object(s). I mention the style guidelines only because the easiest way for me to layout forms in Aida is using tables, which does not bother me for the applications I am writing, but is apparently a big faux pas in the CSS world!
I would be happy to help any way I can; I have been given much by the Aida community and have been lax in my duties to provide more promised documentation on the Aida web site! (There are so many interlocking pieces of a good demonstration showing off the many parts of Aida that I get lost in "Scope Creep.") So...ask away, and I will answer as best I can!
Hope this is somewhat useful,
Rob
P.S. I should really figure out this IRC thing someday as well...
On 5/10/08, Germán Arduino <garduino <at> gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rob:
Sorry bothering you with this question, but on IRC Janko commented me that I can ask you about your experience using Aida against Seaside.
I'm familiar with Seaside, developed several apps, but I'm interested in give a try to Aida and if you can comment you own experience, surely will be a lot useful to me.
Thanks in advance by your help.
Cheers.
--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net
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<p>Sure...I think best "out loud" around other people, so I hope you don't mind going "back and forth!"<br><br>I don't think I can call myself a compete Smalltalk "novice" anymore, though I still feel like it compared with everyone else out there. My programming experience is purely procedural: Assembly, VisualBasic, etc..., but I was always trying to do Smalltalk-ish stuff. It has taken me a LONG time to be able to do "useful work."<br><br>Also keep in mind that I COMPLETELY missed the web-programming movement while I was in the Army. I have NO experience with HTML, CSS, Javascript, etc, etc, etc...<br><br>With that in mind, I found Seaside challenging because it builds on your [pre-existing] web knowledge.<br><br>Aida, in my mind, is much "simpler" in this regard, or at least more "abstract." I could actually (for the most part) "figure it out" by browsing the classes and the WebDemoApp methods.<br><br>The idea of "naming conventions" confused me at first about Aida--you MUST have a domain object (MyObject) that is the domain model for your application (MyObjectApp). Starting and stopping your site is a bit rough, and styling your site can be confusing. I can change the style now, but am no good at CSS, so I am limited in what I can change.<br><br>For Squeak, Nicolas is doing some great Scriptaculous work (<a href="http://nico.bioskop.fr/">http://nico.bioskop.fr/</a>). I found all the Ajax integration in Aida much easier to understand than in Seaside, where I just didn't have a clue what was going on. In fact, Ajax is buried at the bottom of the Aida framework, so it feels very much "built-in."<br><br>I the big reason I am using Aida is because it was "simple enough" for me. I always thought of myself as a "smart" programmer: I have a long-ago degree in Physics, and have been "programming" since I was 11. I do process improvement and Decision Support work at a hospital. But Seaside still escapes me because I am NOT a programmer, meaning I need to program to "get things done," not to write a "great program," and so Aida was a great choice for me because I could almost just sit down and get started, and Janko and the Aida community are VERY willing to help when you have a question. There are very few things I have wanted to do that they haven't been able to explain to me--usually within HOURS.<br><br>So...depending on what you are writing (I am working on basic business data-collection applications), and depending on how you feel about the CSS style guidelines, you can very quickly and read ably get many components up and running, nicely pre-wired to your domain model object(s). I mention the style guidelines only because the easiest way for me to layout forms in Aida is using tables, which does not bother me for the applications I am writing, but is apparently a big faux pas in the CSS world!<br><br>I would be happy to help any way I can; I have been given much by the Aida community and have been lax in my duties to provide more promised documentation on the Aida web site! (There are so many interlocking pieces of a good demonstration showing off the many parts of Aida that I get lost in "Scope Creep.") So...ask away, and I will answer as best I can!<br><br>Hope this is somewhat useful,<br><br>Rob<br><br>P.S. I should really figure out this IRC thing someday as well...<br><br></p>
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<span class="gmail_quote">On 5/10/08, Germán Arduino <<a href="mailto:garduino <at> gmail.com">garduino <at> gmail.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote">
Hi Rob:<br><br>Sorry bothering you with this question, but on IRC Janko commented me that I can ask you about your experience using Aida against Seaside.<br><br>I'm familiar with Seaside, developed several apps, but I'm interested in give a try to Aida and if you can comment you own experience, surely will be a lot useful to me.<br><br>Thanks in advance by your help.<br><br>Cheers.<br clear="all"><span class="sg"><br>-- <br>Germán S. Arduino<br><a href="http://www.arsol.biz" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.arsol.biz</a><br><a href="http://www.arsol.net" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.arsol.net</a><br></span>
</blockquote>
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