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Richard Cyganiak | 1 Jun 2006 08:32
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Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise


On 1 Jun 2006, at 00:18, Ian Davis wrote:

> On 31/05/2006 22:04, Richard Cyganiak wrote:
>> dc:title is unambiguous, or so I claim until you present a  
>> scenario where the assumption "account title == account homepage  
>> title" is unreasonable.
>> All other properties I can think of fall in either of these  
>> categories too.
>
> Have you considered dc:creator?
>
> dc:creator - An entity primarily responsible for making the content  
> of the resource.
>
> The creator of the online account is the service provider,

That's debatable -- I think the entity primarily responsible for  
making the content of your Flickr account is you, not Flickr. At  
least, that's not an entirely unreasonable interpretation.

<#ian> foaf:holdsAccount <http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/>.
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> a foaf:OnlineAccount .
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> foaf:accountName  
"35034351720 <at> N01".
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> dc:title "Flickr: Photos  
from Ian Davis".
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> dc:format "text/html".
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> dc:creator "Ian Davis".
<http://flickr.com/photos/35034351720 <at> N01/> dc:publisher "Yahoo Inc.".
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Ian Davis | 1 Jun 2006 10:57

Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

On 01/06/2006 07:32, Richard Cyganiak wrote:
>>
>> The creator of the online account is the service provider,
> 
> That's debatable -- I think the entity primarily responsible for making 
> the content of your Flickr account is you, not Flickr. At least, that's 
> not an entirely unreasonable interpretation.
> 

You can stretch that argument for Flickr but that's the type of online 
account that is primarily for user generated content. I don't think 
that's the general case. Consider an online game where I generate very 
little content for the game but I may personalise a page about me. The 
same can be said of Amazon, ebay, AIM, any service that I pay to access 
premium content etc.

Consider also a wiki like ESW. I asked for an account to be created so I 
could associate my name with edits that I make. Yet I didn't create a 
homepage for myself until months later. I know the URI of the latter 
(http://esw.w3.org/topic/IanDavis) but not the former.

I think in general there is a need to differentiate the home page 
provided for me by a service, the service itself and the homepage of the 
service. FOAF supports the latter 2 needs but not the first.

Ian

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Richard Cyganiak | 1 Jun 2006 14:22
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Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

Ian,

Sorry for being a pain, but your examples still do not convince me.

On 1 Jun 2006, at 10:57, Ian Davis wrote:
> On 01/06/2006 07:32, Richard Cyganiak wrote:
>>>
>>> The creator of the online account is the service provider,
>> That's debatable -- I think the entity primarily responsible for  
>> making the content of your Flickr account is you, not Flickr. At  
>> least, that's not an entirely unreasonable interpretation.
>
> You can stretch that argument for Flickr but that's the type of  
> online account that is primarily for user generated content. I  
> don't think that's the general case. Consider an online game where  
> I generate very little content for the game but I may personalise a  
> page about me. The same can be said of Amazon, ebay, AIM, any  
> service that I pay to access premium content etc.

As far as one can talk about "contents" of online accounts: Every  
online account will contain at least your user data, which was  
created by you. Therefore I think it's reasonable to claim that you  
are the (or at least one) dc:creator of your online accounts. Just as  
you are the (or at least one) dc:creator of their homepages.

> Consider also a wiki like ESW. I asked for an account to be created  
> so I could associate my name with edits that I make. Yet I didn't  
> create a homepage for myself until months later. I know the URI of  
> the latter (http://esw.w3.org/topic/IanDavis) but not the former.
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Uldis Bojars | 6 Jun 2006 19:38
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foaf:accountHomepage reprise

Ian, Richard,

On 6/1/06, Richard Cyganiak <richard@...> wrote:

> > and the homepage of the service. FOAF supports the latter 2 needs
> > but not the first.
>
> I think the requirements you've presented so far (recording the
> account's homepage URL in RDF) can be addressed without introducing
> new properties. Introducing a new property is not a thing that should
> be done lightly. An example of why existing vocabulary can't cope

It seems like the discussion here is limited to very few of us.

There is a number of distinct options, but all are quite similar
(homepage property, new accountHomepage property, using it as URI for
OnlineAccount) and it's hard to definitely prove that one way is the
best.

In order to introduce a new property (if that is required), someone
who has the ability to edit the FOAF ontlogy has to speak (Danbri,
Libby?). Maybe they also have a "hunch" on which way to go.

What we can do in the meantime is:
 - see the differences and pro/cons of each approach
 - document those on the wiki
 - ask a wider community (e.g., semantic-web list)

Adding a new property might help to quickly answer a question "show me
all online account homepages" in a "lazy" way < ?account
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Dan Brickley | 6 Jun 2006 22:56

Re: FOAF namespace history test data

resend

* Dan Brickley <danbri@...> [2006-06-06 16:39-0400]
> 
> (this is also a test message; I think mailman might have
> kicked me off the list!)
> 
> http://spypixel.com/2006/dcmi/foaf/ 
> has a .pl perl script, a .tar.gz archive, and a revs/ filetree
> containing historical snapshots of the FOAF index.rdf namespace 
> document, as extracted from (view-)cvs. Idea is to load these 
> into a SPARQL quadstore such as ARC, to run vocab-status and 
> historical queries, eg. "when was foaf:gender added?" or 
> "when did foaf:Person become stable"?
> 
> You can grab a copy of the archive in the .tar.gz or re-run the 
> perl script locally. The *.ok files contain a triple-count, as 
> supplied by Redland/Raptor.
> 
> Dan

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Dan Brickley | 6 Jun 2006 23:15

Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

Something odd is going on with my mail; sorry for having 
missed some of this discussion, and other posts during May.
I saw some, but others have gone into the void. I just 
resusbscribed via mailman as danbri@... instead of 
danbri@... and can at least send mail now. Haven't figured out 
the problem. 

Anyway, regarding foaf:acountHomepage, some thoughts:

 - I agree with Uldis that FOAF did well through being open to 
  new ideas for vocab, and not being over-conservative. We also 
  have some conventions for allowing experimental stuff into the 
  namespace and marking it as such (ie. 'unstable'). Now SPARQL 
  is here it is also getting easier to exploit such term-stability 
  metadata.

 - I agree that we ought to be using existing vocab if possible.

 - I'm not sure that the concept of 'home page' intuitively applies 
 to each and every hosted page associated with my online accounts.
 But 'homepage' (in the wider Web community) has never been a super 
 precise concept. I think in general, people are felt to have fewer
 homepages than accounts. I have dozens and dozens of accounts.

 - in that light, I'm not sure the xyzHomepage pattern is great,
 since it begs question "home page of what?". Of the account?  Or 
 of the person.

 - these pages are pages created by the service, about the user;
   perhaps we could say that each account foaf:isPrimaryTopicOf
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Ian Davis | 7 Jun 2006 00:21

Re: Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

On 06/06/2006 22:15, Dan Brickley wrote:
> How about foaf:accountPage ?

I'd be happy with that, although perhaps foaf:accountProfilePage would 
more accurately capture what I'm trying to point to.

Ian

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Dan Brickley | 7 Jun 2006 00:36

Re: Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

* Ian Davis <iand@...> [2006-06-06 23:21+0100]
> On 06/06/2006 22:15, Dan Brickley wrote:
> >How about foaf:accountPage ?
> 
> I'd be happy with that, although perhaps foaf:accountProfilePage would 
> more accurately capture what I'm trying to point to.

I like 'Profile' being in there. It also is a nod towards the
terminology used for 'PersonalProfileDocument'.

BTW considering the words 'document' and 'page' and consistency of
usage: are we perhaps using 'Document' in class names, and 'page' only
when naming relations between things (of various kinds) and 'documents'?
(schoolHomepage, workplaceHomepage, homepage, etc. properties).

For now, there would be no range on accountProfilePage beyond saying 
it is a Document? 

Dan

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Ian Davis | 7 Jun 2006 01:06

Re: Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

On 06/06/2006 23:36, Dan Brickley wrote:
> * Ian Davis <iand@...> [2006-06-06 23:21+0100]
>> On 06/06/2006 22:15, Dan Brickley wrote:
>>> How about foaf:accountPage ?
>> I'd be happy with that, although perhaps foaf:accountProfilePage would 
>> more accurately capture what I'm trying to point to.
> 
> I like 'Profile' being in there. It also is a nod towards the
> terminology used for 'PersonalProfileDocument'.

Cool, that would be quite consistent.

> 
> BTW considering the words 'document' and 'page' and consistency of
> usage: are we perhaps using 'Document' in class names, and 'page' only
> when naming relations between things (of various kinds) and 'documents'?
> (schoolHomepage, workplaceHomepage, homepage, etc. properties).

Yes, that seems like a natural thing to do and works for me.

> 
> For now, there would be no range on accountProfilePage beyond saying 
> it is a Document? 

I think that's all we need to say at this point.

> Dan

Ian
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Richard Cyganiak | 7 Jun 2006 10:35
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Re: Re: foaf:accountHomepage reprise

On 6 Jun 2006, at 23:15, Dan Brickley wrote:
...
> I'd rather leave the
> word "home" out of the property.

+1

> And I'd rather not (sorry Richard)
> conflate accounts with pages, since there are many kinds of account
> which don't (yet) come with Web documents describing them.

For accounts without a page we can use blank nodes like we always did.

> How about foaf:accountPage ?

I agree with Ian here, foaf:accountProfilePage would be better.

For me, the possible introcuction of this property raises another  
question. Is this snippet, which I've had in my FOAF file for a long  
time, an abuse of FOAF vocabulary then? Do I have to change it?

:cygri foaf:holdsAccount <http://del.icio.us/cygri>;
<http://del.icio.us/cygri>
     a foaf:OnlineAccount;
     foaf:accountServiceHomepage <http://del.icio.us/>;
     foaf:accountName "cygri";
     .

Related: If foaf:accountProfilePage is an IFP, we can smush account  
nodes together. I wonder if foaf:holdsAccount should be an IFP too,
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