Aidan Lister | 11 Jan 10:48 2010
Picon
Picon

Short tags requirement

Hi all,

I remember when the short tags requirement was first discussed on the
list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.

Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default, and that the
PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can we discuss
what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters and minor
readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable to run
gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.

The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same way that
ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's a lot of
work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every line that
changes in any template) I'd have to pass.

[1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php

Thanks,
Aidan

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(Continue reading)

Dave Moore | 11 Jan 15:45 2010

Re: Short tags requirement

Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support point of 
view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what Aidan 
points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because of this requirment.

Dave
(floridave)

At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I remember when the short tags requirement was first discussed on the
>list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
>
>Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default, and that the
>PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can we discuss
>what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters and minor
>readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable to run
>gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
>
>The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same way that
>ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's a lot of
>work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every line that
>changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
>
>[1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
>
>Thanks,
>Aidan
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Continue reading)

Jake Conner | 11 Jan 16:32 2010

Re: Short tags requirement

We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not easily change their php.ini settings to support
short tags - and for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running php 6 yet.  But once the big
shared hosts start switching to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices that installed via
fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say
that this would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base, and I don't see the point other
than to make template development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor should be completing
your tags for you anyway).

Jake
(starflowerweb)

On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:

> Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support point of 
> view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what Aidan 
> points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because of this requirment.
> 
> Dave
> (floridave)
> 
> At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I remember when the short tags requirement was first discussed on the
>> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
>> 
>> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default, and that the
>> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can we discuss
>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters and minor
(Continue reading)

Tim Almdal | 11 Jan 17:09 2010
Picon

Re: Short tags requirement

I'm not worrying about PHP 6. Look how long it took for the large hosting companies to switch from PHP 4.x to 5.x.  We could be writing gallery4 by the time that happens.

The simple solution would be to change Gallery3 so when it installs, it sets short tags on in the .htaccess file... end of problem.

With only Bharat and I doing gallery3 development, I'm not willing to spend the time making that change, there are more important things to be addressing.

If its that big of an issue for somebody... make a fork and make the changes you want. Personally, I prefer the short tags. 

Tim

----- Original Message -----
From: Jake Conner <jake <at> starflower-studios.com>
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:59 am
Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
To: Dave Moore <dave <at> langleycom.com>
Cc: gallery-devel <at> lists.sourceforge.net

> We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not
> easily change their php.ini settings to support short tags - and
> for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running
> php 6 yet.  But once the big shared hosts start switching
> to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices that
> installed via fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or
> how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
> do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I
> don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say that this
> would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base,
> and I don't see the point other than to make template
> development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor
> should be completing your tags for you anyway).
>
> Jake
> (starflowerweb)
>
> On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:
>
> > Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support point
> of
> > view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what
> Aidan
> > points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because
> of this requirment.
> >
> > Dave
> > (floridave)
> >
> > At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> I remember when the short tags requirement was first
> discussed on the
> >> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
> >>
> >> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default, and
> that the
> >> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can we
> discuss>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters
> and minor
> >> readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable
> to run
> >> gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
> >>
> >> The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same way that
> >> ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's a
> lot of
> >> work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every line that
> >> changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
> >>
> >> [1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Aidan
> >>
> >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------
> >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> >> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> >> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
> distribution fast and easy
> >> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
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> >
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>
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Tim Almdal | 11 Jan 17:44 2010
Picon

Re: Short tags requirement

Doing a little research on the issue, I found lots of rumor and innuendo. But did find some minutes from developer  meetings, which will hopefully put an end to this discussion.


Minutes PHP Developers Meeting, Nov 2005(http://www.php.net/~derick/meeting-notes.html):
  1. We kill "<%" but keep "<?".
  2. Jani will prepare a patch that disallows mixing different open/close tags.
  3. We will not add "<?php =".
From a developers meeting in May 2009 (http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09):
6. Leave short tags alone - never talk about it again.

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Almdal <tnalmdal <at> shaw.ca>
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:10 am
Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
To: gallery-devel <at> lists.sourceforge.net

> I'm not worrying about PHP 6. Look how long it took for the
> large hosting companies to switch from PHP 4.x to 5.x.  We could
> be writing gallery4 by the time that happens.
>
> The simple solution would be to change Gallery3 so when it
> installs, it sets short tags on in the .htaccess file... end of
> problem.
> With only Bharat and I doing gallery3 development, I'm not
> willing to spend the time making that change, there are more
> important things to be addressing.
>
> If its that big of an issue for somebody... make a fork and make
> the changes you want. Personally, I prefer the short tags. 
>
> Tim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jake Conner <jake <at> starflower-studios.com>
> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:59 am
> Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
> To: Dave Moore <dave <at> langleycom.com>
> Cc: gallery-devel <at> lists.sourceforge.net
>
> > We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not
> > easily change their php.ini settings to support short tags -
> and
> > for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running
> > php 6 yet.  But once the big shared hosts start switching
> > to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices
> that
> > installed via fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or
> > how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
> > do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I
> > don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say that
> this
> > would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base,
> > and I don't see the point other than to make template
> > development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor
> > should be completing your tags for you anyway).
> >
> > Jake
> > (starflowerweb)
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:
> >
> > > Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support
> point
> > of
> > > view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what
> > Aidan
> > > points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because
> > of this requirment.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > (floridave)
> > >
> > > At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I remember when the short tags requirement was first
> > discussed on the
> > >> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
> > >>
> > >> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default,
> and
> > that the
> > >> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can
> we
> > discuss>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters
> > and minor
> > >> readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable
> > to run
> > >> gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
> > >>
> > >> The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same
> way that
> > >> ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's
> a
> > lot of
> > >> work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every
> line that
> > >> changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Aidan
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----------------
> > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > >> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > >> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
> > distribution fast and easy
> > >> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > >> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> > >>
> > >> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > >> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ---------------
> > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > > Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > > A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
> distribution
> > fast and easy
> > > Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> > >
> > > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution
> > fast and easy
> > Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> >
> > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> >
>
> Website: http://www.timalmdal.com
>
>
>

Website: http://www.timalmdal.com

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
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Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
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Andy Staudacher | 11 Jan 18:05 2010
Picon

Re: Short tags requirement

On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Tim Almdal <tnalmdal-fVOoFLC7IWo@public.gmane.org> wrote:

Doing a little research on the issue, I found lots of rumor and innuendo. But did find some minutes from developer  meetings, which will hopefully put an end to this discussion.

Minutes PHP Developers Meeting, Nov 2005(http://www.php.net/~derick/meeting-notes.html):
  1. We kill "<%" but keep "<?".
  2. Jani will prepare a patch that disallows mixing different open/close tags.
  3. We will not add "<?php =".
From a developers meeting in May 2009 (http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09):
6. Leave short tags alone - never talk about it again.

Thanks Tim!
I've added a sub-section in our FAQ:



----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Almdal <tnalmdal <at> shaw.ca>
Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:10 am
Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
To: gallery-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5upmplPMkL2fr@public.gmane.orget

> I'm not worrying about PHP 6. Look how long it took for the
> large hosting companies to switch from PHP 4.x to 5.x.  We could
> be writing gallery4 by the time that happens.
>
> The simple solution would be to change Gallery3 so when it
> installs, it sets short tags on in the .htaccess file... end of
> problem.
> With only Bharat and I doing gallery3 development, I'm not
> willing to spend the time making that change, there are more
> important things to be addressing.
>
> If its that big of an issue for somebody... make a fork and make
> the changes you want. Personally, I prefer the short tags. 
>
> Tim
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jake Conner <jake-jfcHj38JMiYuZXP8tdXUEeUpLwaXK1CT@public.gmane.org>
> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:59 am
> Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
> To: Dave Moore <dave-XDo7wED7qqsxpvK4C0GaPQ@public.gmane.org>
> Cc: gallery-devel-5NWGOfrQmneRv+LV9MX5uipxlwaOVQ5f@public.gmane.org
>
> > We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not
> > easily change their php.ini settings to support short tags -
> and
> > for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running
> > php 6 yet.  But once the big shared hosts start switching
> > to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices
> that
> > installed via fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or
> > how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
> > do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I
> > don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say that
> this
> > would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base,
> > and I don't see the point other than to make template
> > development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor
> > should be completing your tags for you anyway).
> >
> > Jake
> > (starflowerweb)
> >
> > On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:
> >
> > > Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support
> point
> > of
> > > view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what
> > Aidan
> > > points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because
> > of this requirment.
> > >
> > > Dave
> > > (floridave)
> > >
> > > At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
> > >> Hi all,
> > >>
> > >> I remember when the short tags requirement was first
> > discussed on the
> > >> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
> > >>
> > >> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default,
> and
> > that the
> > >> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can
> we
> > discuss>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters
> > and minor
> > >> readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable
> > to run
> > >> gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
> > >>
> > >> The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same
> way that
> > >> ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's
> a
> > lot of
> > >> work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every
> line that
> > >> changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
> > >>
> > >> [1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Aidan
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ----------------
> > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > >> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > >> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
> > distribution fast and easy
> > >> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > >> __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> > >>
> > >> [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > >> [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> > >
> > >
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ---------------
> > > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > > Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > > A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
> distribution
> > fast and easy
> > > Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> > >
> > > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > -------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
> > Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
> > A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app distribution
> > fast and easy
> > Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon customers
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/verizon-dev2dev
> > __[ g a l l e r y - d e v e l ]_________________________
> >
> > [ list info/archive --> http://gallery.sf.net/lists.php ]
> > [ gallery info/FAQ/download --> http://gallery.sf.net ]
> >
>
> Website: http://www.timalmdal.com
>
>
>

Website: http://www.timalmdal.com


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Bharat Mediratta | 11 Jan 18:47 2010

Re: Short tags requirement


Hooray for some sanity on the part of the PHP developers!  It makes *no*
sense to enforce long PHP tags.  Long tags were created to support an
edge case and are a good example of the tail wagging the dog -- getting
rid of it now would cause massive pain for minimal benefit.

And please don't underestimate the value of using short tags in our
code.  It substantially reduces the visual complexity of our views which
  is a very big deal for template developers.

-Bharat

Andy Staudacher wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@... 
> <mailto:tnalmdal@...>> wrote:
> 
>     Doing a little research on the issue, I found lots of rumor
>     and innuendo. But did find some minutes from developer  meetings,
>     which will hopefully put an end to this discussion.
> 
>     Minutes PHP Developers Meeting, Nov
>     2005(http://www.php.net/~derick/meeting-notes.html):
> 
>        1. We kill "<%" but keep "<?".
>        2. Jani will prepare a patch that disallows mixing different
>           open/close tags.
>        3. We will not add "<?php =".
> 
>      From a developers meeting in May 2009
>     (http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09):
>     6. Leave short tags alone - never talk about it again.
> 
> 
> Thanks Tim!
> I've added a sub-section in our FAQ:
> http://codex.gallery2.org/Gallery3:FAQ#Short_Open_Tags_and_PHP_6
> 
> 
> 
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@... <mailto:tnalmdal@...>>
>     Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:10 am
>     Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
>     To: gallery-devel@...
>     <mailto:gallery-devel@...>
> 
>      > I'm not worrying about PHP 6. Look how long it took for the
>      > large hosting companies to switch from PHP 4.x to 5.x.  We could
>      > be writing gallery4 by the time that happens.
>      >
>      > The simple solution would be to change Gallery3 so when it
>      > installs, it sets short tags on in the .htaccess file... end of
>      > problem.
>      > With only Bharat and I doing gallery3 development, I'm not
>      > willing to spend the time making that change, there are more
>      > important things to be addressing.
>      >
>      > If its that big of an issue for somebody... make a fork and make
>      > the changes you want. Personally, I prefer the short tags. 
>      >
>      > Tim
>      >
>      > ----- Original Message -----
>      > From: Jake Conner <jake@...
>     <mailto:jake@...>>
>      > Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:59 am
>      > Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
>      > To: Dave Moore <dave@... <mailto:dave@...>>
>      > Cc: gallery-devel@...
>     <mailto:gallery-devel@...>
>      >
>      > > We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not
>      > > easily change their php.ini settings to support short tags -
>      > and
>      > > for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running
>      > > php 6 yet.  But once the big shared hosts start switching
>      > > to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices
>      > that
>      > > installed via fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or
>      > > how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
>      > > do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I
>      > > don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say that
>      > this
>      > > would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base,
>      > > and I don't see the point other than to make template
>      > > development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor
>      > > should be completing your tags for you anyway).
>      > >
>      > > Jake
>      > > (starflowerweb)
>      > >
>      > > On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:
>      > >
>      > > > Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support
>      > point
>      > > of
>      > > > view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what
>      > > Aidan
>      > > > points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because
>      > > of this requirment.
>      > > >
>      > > > Dave
>      > > > (floridave)
>      > > >
>      > > > At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
>      > > >> Hi all,
>      > > >>
>      > > >> I remember when the short tags requirement was first
>      > > discussed on the
>      > > >> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default,
>      > and
>      > > that the
>      > > >> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can
>      > we
>      > > discuss>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters
>      > > and minor
>      > > >> readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable
>      > > to run
>      > > >> gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
>      > > >>
>      > > >> The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same
>      > way that
>      > > >> ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's
>      > a
>      > > lot of
>      > > >> work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every
>      > line that
>      > > >> changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
>      > > >>
>      > > >> [1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
>      > > >>
>      > > >> Thanks,
>      > > >> Aidan
>      > > >>
>      > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
>      > --
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>      > > >> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer
>     Community
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>      > >
>      >
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>      >
>      >
>      >
> 
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> 
> 
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Bharat Mediratta | 11 Jan 19:50 2010

Re: Short tags requirement

Jake Conner wrote:
> Still doesn't quite seem worth losing the large number of cheap hosts that enforce a default php.ini with
no overrides - but, I'm not writing the app, so that's just my 2¢

Do we have any stats on how many hosts actually enforce no short tags? 
The default value in PHP 5.2 RC 7 was to allow short_open_tag so those 
cheap hosts would have to go out of their way to turn it off.

-Bharat

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Jake Conner | 11 Jan 19:32 2010

Re: Short tags requirement

Still doesn't quite seem worth losing the large number of cheap hosts that enforce a default php.ini with no
overrides - but, I'm not writing the app, so that's just my 2¢

Jake

On Jan 11, 2010, at 11:47 AM, Bharat Mediratta wrote:

> 
> Hooray for some sanity on the part of the PHP developers!  It makes *no*
> sense to enforce long PHP tags.  Long tags were created to support an
> edge case and are a good example of the tail wagging the dog -- getting
> rid of it now would cause massive pain for minimal benefit.
> 
> And please don't underestimate the value of using short tags in our
> code.  It substantially reduces the visual complexity of our views which
>  is a very big deal for template developers.
> 
> -Bharat
> 
> Andy Staudacher wrote:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@... 
>> <mailto:tnalmdal@...>> wrote:
>> 
>>    Doing a little research on the issue, I found lots of rumor
>>    and innuendo. But did find some minutes from developer  meetings,
>>    which will hopefully put an end to this discussion.
>> 
>>    Minutes PHP Developers Meeting, Nov
>>    2005(http://www.php.net/~derick/meeting-notes.html):
>> 
>>       1. We kill "<%" but keep "<?".
>>       2. Jani will prepare a patch that disallows mixing different
>>          open/close tags.
>>       3. We will not add "<?php =".
>> 
>>     From a developers meeting in May 2009
>>    (http://wiki.php.net/summits/pdmnotesmay09):
>>    6. Leave short tags alone - never talk about it again.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks Tim!
>> I've added a sub-section in our FAQ:
>> http://codex.gallery2.org/Gallery3:FAQ#Short_Open_Tags_and_PHP_6
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>    ----- Original Message -----
>>    From: Tim Almdal <tnalmdal@... <mailto:tnalmdal@...>>
>>    Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:10 am
>>    Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
>>    To: gallery-devel@...
>>    <mailto:gallery-devel@...>
>> 
>>> I'm not worrying about PHP 6. Look how long it took for the
>>> large hosting companies to switch from PHP 4.x to 5.x.  We could
>>> be writing gallery4 by the time that happens.
>>> 
>>> The simple solution would be to change Gallery3 so when it
>>> installs, it sets short tags on in the .htaccess file... end of
>>> problem.
>>> With only Bharat and I doing gallery3 development, I'm not
>>> willing to spend the time making that change, there are more
>>> important things to be addressing.
>>> 
>>> If its that big of an issue for somebody... make a fork and make
>>> the changes you want. Personally, I prefer the short tags. 
>>> 
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Jake Conner <jake@...
>>    <mailto:jake@...>>
>>> Date: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:59 am
>>> Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement
>>> To: Dave Moore <dave@... <mailto:dave@...>>
>>> Cc: gallery-devel@...
>>    <mailto:gallery-devel@...>
>>> 
>>>> We're geeks - er, I mean developers - no one we know could not
>>>> easily change their php.ini settings to support short tags -
>>> and
>>>> for that matter, those that couldn't are generally not running
>>>> php 6 yet.  But once the big shared hosts start switching
>>>> to PHP 6, you're going to see 1) a lot of confused novices
>>> that
>>>> installed via fantastico and have no idea what a php.ini is or
>>>> how to override it and 2) a lot of people on shared hosts that
>>>> do not allow php.ini to be overridden anyway.  While I
>>>> don't have numbers, I think it's probably safe to say that
>>> this
>>>> would affect a substantial percentage of Gallery's user base,
>>>> and I don't see the point other than to make template
>>>> development very, very slightly easier (a good text editor
>>>> should be completing your tags for you anyway).
>>>> 
>>>> Jake
>>>> (starflowerweb)
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 11, 2010, at 8:45 AM, Dave Moore wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Don't know if this is a pro or con, but from the support
>>> point
>>>> of
>>>>> view it has not been an issue yet. Only people saying what
>>>> Aidan
>>>>> points out.  Nobody that I know could not run G3 because
>>>> of this requirment.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dave
>>>>> (floridave)
>>>>> 
>>>>> At 02:48 AM 1/11/2010, Aidan Lister wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I remember when the short tags requirement was first
>>>> discussed on the
>>>>>> list, Bharat said it would be revisited down the line.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Given that PHP6 will make short_tags disabled by default,
>>> and
>>>> that the
>>>>>> PHP manual explicitly recommends they be avoided [1], can
>>> we
>>>> discuss>> what the pro's are, except for saving 10 characters
>>>> and minor
>>>>>> readability? The cons being many hosts are currently unable
>>>> to run
>>>>>> gallery3, it's non-standard, and explicitly discouraged.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The other option is someone cloning gallery3 in the same
>>> way that
>>>>>> ckieffer has for pgsql? I don't mind doing it, but if it's
>>> a
>>>> lot of
>>>>>> work (and I imagine git's going to complain about every
>>> line that
>>>>>> changes in any template) I'd have to pass.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> [1] http://php.net/manual/en/language.basic-syntax.phpmode.php
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Aidan
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>>> ----------------
>>>>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer
>>    Community
>>>>>> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development
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>>>>>> A streamlined, 14 day to market process makes app
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>>>>>> Join now and get one step closer to millions of Verizon
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -------------------------------------------------------------
>>> --
>>>> ---------------
>>>>> This SF.Net email is sponsored by the Verizon Developer Community
>>>>> Take advantage of Verizon's best-in-class app development support
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
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Jake Conner | 11 Jan 19:57 2010

Fwd: Short tags requirement

oops, forgot devel

Begin forwarded message:

Date: January 11, 2010 12:56:51 PM CST
Subject: Re: [Gallery-devel] Short tags requirement

Right now, almost none - the issue is what happens once these hosts switch to PHP 6, which I would think will start to happen about a year after the official release and become prevalent within two or three.

Jake

On Jan 11, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Bharat Mediratta wrote:

Jake Conner wrote:
Still doesn't quite seem worth losing the large number of cheap hosts that enforce a default php.ini with no overrides - but, I'm not writing the app, so that's just my 2¢

Do we have any stats on how many hosts actually enforce no short tags? The default value in PHP 5.2 RC 7 was to allow short_open_tag so those cheap hosts would have to go out of their way to turn it off.

-Bharat


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Gmane