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fantasai | 5 Feb 2007 06:04

Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


MURAKAMI Shinyu wrote:
> fantasai wrote:
>>   1) Should the 'start' and 'end' values apply to inlines or to blocks?
> 
> It may not be necessary to specify on inlines, but I think they should
> be able to apply to inlines for consistency because this functionality
> is similar to text-autospace property and other text spacing properties
> and they should have same scope.

Ok, I've marked punctuation-trim as applying to all elements.

> ...
> The following is a revised version of this rule, more close to Japanese
> standard (JIS X 4051).
>  ...

Ok, I've updated the definitions accordingly.

>>   3) In your proposal there are some language-based differences in whether
>>      ・：；。．、， are considered middle dot punctuations, closing punctuations,
>>      or neither. Is this a linguistic difference, or is it a reflection of
>>      how the punctuation is typically drawn (centered vs. to one side)?
>>      The reason I ask is because I have, for example, a simplified Chinese
>>      textbook where the periods and commas are drawn centered -- in this
>>      case, I'm guessing one wouldn't want them to be trimmed as closing
>>      punctuation.
> 
> It is a reflection of how the punctuation is typically drawn (centered
> vs. to one side), since I am not well versed in Chinese and Korean
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shen | 5 Feb 2007 09:02
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Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


[snip]
>
> Judging from æ ‡ç‚¹ç¬¦å·ç”¨æ³•, the Simplified Chinese list makes sense.
> (It
> specifies the placement of periods, commas, and colons to the bottom left
> of the glyph box.) I don't know of a similar resource for Traditional
> Chinese, however, so I can't check that. (Do any i18n guys/gals reading
> this have a pointer for Hant punctuation conventions?)

There is a large amount of text in traditional Chinese that is
presented as vertical text. So the punctuation marks should be
centered in the glyph box, for otherwise it will look pretty odd.
Since there is less vertical text in simplified Chinese characters,
putting some punctuation marks to the left or bottom left works
fine in most cases. But for the rare cases of vertical text, they
should be centered.

So I think centering punctuation marks in glyph boxes will work
for both horizontal and vertical text renderings and should be
preferred.

-Vincent
>
> I'll ask Steve (Adobe) and Paul (MS) to check on this as well.
>
>> When punctuations typically only used for one language appear in another
>> language text, punctuation trimming is not expected.
>
> Given that in web pages the language is often unmarked, and just generally
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fantasai | 5 Feb 2007 12:14

Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


shen <at> cse.ust.hk wrote:
> [snip]
>> Judging from [...], the Simplified Chinese list makes sense.
>> (It specifies the placement of periods, commas, and colons to the bottom left
>> of the glyph box.) I don't know of a similar resource for Traditional
>> Chinese, however, so I can't check that. (Do any i18n guys/gals reading
>> this have a pointer for Hant punctuation conventions?)
> 
> There is a large amount of text in traditional Chinese that is
> presented as vertical text. So the punctuation marks should be
> centered in the glyph box, for otherwise it will look pretty odd.
> Since there is less vertical text in simplified Chinese characters,
> putting some punctuation marks to the left or bottom left works
> fine in most cases. But for the rare cases of vertical text, they
> should be centered.
> 
> So I think centering punctuation marks in glyph boxes will work
> for both horizontal and vertical text renderings and should be
> preferred.

Well, a large amount of Japanese text is also laid out vertically.
For Japanese, an alternate set of punctuation glyphs is used in
vertical text, so that, for example, the comma is placed in the
bottom left of the box in horizontal text, but the top right in
vertical text. Chinese can adopt the same approach (which imho
looks more elegant).

~fantasai
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Paul Nelson (ATC | 5 Feb 2007 13:30
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RE: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


Why do you want to specify where in the box the glyph is put? Let the
font designers and font infrastructure take care of the right place
according to the rules that the experts for each language understand.

Existing systems (at least Windows and Apple) allow for vertical
substitution of glyphs in the fonts when writing in vertical layout so
glyphs are correctly placed automatically. We don't need to specify this
in our specs. We simply need to allow UAs continue to do the right thing
as they have done for years.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: www-style-request <at> w3.org [mailto:www-style-request <at> w3.org] On
Behalf Of fantasai
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 3:15 AM
To: www-style <at> w3.org
Cc: 'WWW International'
Subject: Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim

shen <at> cse.ust.hk wrote:
> [snip]
>> Judging from [...], the Simplified Chinese list makes sense.
>> (It specifies the placement of periods, commas, and colons to the
bottom left
>> of the glyph box.) I don't know of a similar resource for Traditional
>> Chinese, however, so I can't check that. (Do any i18n guys/gals
reading
>> this have a pointer for Hant punctuation conventions?)
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MURAKAMI Shinyu | 5 Feb 2007 14:29
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Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 18:04:02 +1300
fantasai <fantasai.lists <at> inkedblade.net> wrote:

> > The punctuation list in my proposal was not complete. The following is a
> > revised version. 
> > 
> >       (Japanese)
> >         Fullwidth opening punctuations:   「『（‘“〔［｛〈《【〝〖〘〚｟«
> >         Fullwidth closing punctuations:    」』）’”〕］｝〉》】〟〗〙〛｠»。．、，
> >         Fullwidth middle dot punctuations: ・
> 
> I noticed you left out the colon and semicolon this time. Was that intentional?
> (Also, I assume the character between the filled and open closing brackets is
> the double prime? It looks like kanji on my screen for some reason...)

I wrote colon and semicolon. Disappeared?
Well, I have made this list more clearly with some correction:

Fullwidth opening punctuations:
  U+FF08  FULLWIDTH LEFT PARENTHESIS                    （
  U+2018  LEFT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK                    ‘
  U+201C  LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK                    “
  U+FF3B  FULLWIDTH LEFT SQUARE BRACKET                 ［
  U+FF5B  FULLWIDTH LEFT CURLY BRACKET                  ｛
  U+3008  LEFT ANGLE BRACKET                            〈
  U+300A  LEFT DOUBLE ANGLE BRACKET                     《
  U+300C  LEFT CORNER BRACKET                           「
  U+300E  LEFT WHITE CORNER BRACKET                     『
  U+3010  LEFT BLACK LENTICULAR BRACKET                 【
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Bert Bos | 5 Feb 2007 17:49
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[css3-gcpm] New WD for Generated Content for Paged Media


The CSS WG published a new Working Draft for "Generated Content for 
Paged Media." This module describes features often used in printed 
publications (leaders, cross-references, footnotes, endnotes, running 
headers and footers, hyphenation, etc.) Many features have had very 
little review so far and feedback is requested.

If you send comments, please send them to this mailing list, 
<www-style <at> w3.org>, and prefix the Subject with [css3-gcpm] (as I did 
on this message).

For the CSS WG,

Bert
--

-- 
  Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
  http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
  bert <at> w3.org                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
  +33 (0)4 92 38 76 92            06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France
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Grant, Melinda | 6 Feb 2007 06:42
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RE: [css3 color] ICC profile reference


Hi Chris,

This (your message below) would seem to suggest that references should
be provided to both the most recent v2 and v4 ICC specs, namely ICC.1
2001-04 and ICC.1 2004-10 respectively.

As I understand it, the latest v2 spec is fully backward compatible with
previous v2 specs; it just has some additional optional metadata and
somewhat better explanatory language.  So there doesn't seem any reason
to reference the earlier v2.0 (3.2)...?

Also, in many cases it is the app that uses the profile. Most
ICC-capable apps are aware of GDI limitations and use their own CMM when
they encounter a v4 profile (if not all the time). The much bigger risk
is when an app is not ICC aware, in which case color management doesn't
work regardless of the profile version or OS ICC support.

At any rate, I wouldn't think we would want to preclude
standards-conforming documents styling with css3 from utilizing the most
recent ICC color profiles...?

Best wishes,

Melinda

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Lilley [mailto:chris <at> w3.org] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 2:36 PM
> To: Chris Lilley
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fantasai | 6 Feb 2007 10:25

Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


Paul Nelson (ATC) wrote:
> Why do you want to specify where in the box the glyph is put? Let the
> font designers and font infrastructure take care of the right place
> according to the rules that the experts for each language understand.
> 
> Existing systems (at least Windows and Apple) allow for vertical
> substitution of glyphs in the fonts when writing in vertical layout so
> glyphs are correctly placed automatically. We don't need to specify this
> in our specs. We simply need to allow UAs continue to do the right thing
> as they have done for years.

Paul, there's no question about specifying how punctuation glyphs should
be drawn: that's clearly outside the scope of CSS. What's being discussed
is how the typical placement of punctuation within the glyph box affects
punctuation trimming behavior.

~fantasai
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Paul Nelson (ATC | 6 Feb 2007 16:53
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RE: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


If font designers do not follow conventions, their glyph would be
trimmed out. Thus, CSS should follow JIS and other standards that font
vendors use.

Paul

-----Original Message-----
From: fantasai [mailto:fantasai.lists <at> inkedblade.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 1:25 AM
To: Paul Nelson (ATC)
Cc: www-style <at> w3.org; WWW International
Subject: Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim

Paul Nelson (ATC) wrote:
> Why do you want to specify where in the box the glyph is put? Let the
> font designers and font infrastructure take care of the right place
> according to the rules that the experts for each language understand.
> 
> Existing systems (at least Windows and Apple) allow for vertical
> substitution of glyphs in the fonts when writing in vertical layout so
> glyphs are correctly placed automatically. We don't need to specify
this
> in our specs. We simply need to allow UAs continue to do the right
thing
> as they have done for years.

Paul, there's no question about specifying how punctuation glyphs should
be drawn: that's clearly outside the scope of CSS. What's being
discussed
(Continue reading)

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fantasai | 6 Feb 2007 19:08

Re: [CSS3 Text] punctuation-trim


Paul Nelson (ATC) wrote:
> If font designers do not follow conventions, their glyph would be
> trimmed out. Thus, CSS should follow JIS and other standards that font
> vendors use.

Paul, that's what we're trying to do, and it should work fine for
Japanese. The problem is that
   a) Simplified Chinese fonts don't always follow the standard in how
      they place punctuation, so if we blindly follow the standard,
      the glyphs in those fonts will get trimmed out. (Also, iirc, the
      standard doesn't say anything about the placement of punctuation
      within the glyph box for vertical text.)
   b) I don't have access to any relevant standards for traditional
      Chinese.

~fantasai
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Gmane