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Stephan Hennig | 2 Sep 2010 15:02

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Does MetaPost catch on? (was: [mp-implementors] mpman: command-line syntax)

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Am 02.09.2010 01:27, schrieb Karl Berry:
>      What is the reason MetaPost is so tightly coupled to kpathsea and web2c?
>
> Um.  I'm not sure where this question is coming from.

Yes, that was a rather short question.  What I am wondering is, why is 
MetaPost so unpopular outside TeX world?  For MetaFont, there is this 
thesis that the creative craft of designing fonts and the abstract 
mathematical approach MetaFont takes go well together for the program, 
but not for the users.  That is, the creative people are not the ones 
that love to think about what they do in an abstract model.

<URL:http://www.tug.org/TUGboat/Articles/tb29-3/tb93crossland.pdf>
<URL:http://river-valley.tv/why-did-not-metafont-catch-on/>

For MetaPost, I think this doesn't hold.  MetaPost is much more aiming 
at technically affine people that are used to think in models than 
MetaFont.  Still, I haven't heard of MetaPost being used outside TeX 
world as a tool with it's own benefit to users: making technical 
drawings in a vector format, containing typeset text.  The typesetting 
could be achieved without TeX by bundling MetaPost with troff and a nice 
set of fonts.

> MetaPost was written as a Pascal .web, very similar to mf.web as far
> as external operations were concerned. It had to be ported to
> C/Unix/etc. just like everything else. So I integrated it into the
> web2c-based distribution as a matter of course, so as to use the
> common routines for compilation and file searching. It was the only

(Continue reading)

Stephan Hennig | 2 Sep 2010 15:25

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

Am 02.09.2010 15:02, schrieb Stephan Hennig:

> The typesetting could be achieved without TeX by bundling MetaPost
> with troff and a nice set of fonts.
>
>[...]
>
> Hm, a stand-alone MetaPost distribution as outlined above would really
> need to be able to use system fonts, that is, OTF fonts, the same way
> XeTeX and LuaTeX do.  Taco, Hans, are there any plans into that direction?

Oh, as troff probably isn't OTF aware, that would require MetaPost to do 
the typesetting by itself.  Even if MetaPost learnt to typeset (with 
kerning)

   label("foo" infont <OTF font>, origin);

for OTF fonts, that probably wouldn't include mathematics.  So again, a 
full TeX installation were needed.  Too bad.

Best regards,
Stephan Hennig
--
http://tug.org/metapost/

Stephan Hennig | 2 Sep 2010 18:34

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

Am 02.09.2010 16:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:
> On 2-9-2010 3:25, Stephan Hennig wrote:
>>
>> for OTF fonts, that probably wouldn't include mathematics. So again, a
>> full TeX installation were needed. Too bad.
>
> well, mp is not tex and meant for simple graphics; if you want the
> fullpower of tex (and typesetting) you need to look at other tools

The problem is, MetaPost is for technical graphics, but those in turn 
often call for mathematical typesetting.  Just think about graphs ...  A 
troff + MetaPost bundle would fill the gap.  But this is all 
theoretical, since, personally, I'm fine with TeX.  I just wonder if 
such a bundle could bring more people to MetaPost.

> or follow the reverse approach: use mp inside tex which is what mplib
> is for

Yeah, but what typesetting system are you suggesting that is portable 
and easy to learn?

Best regards,
Stephan Hennig
--
http://tug.org/metapost/

Hans Hagen | 2 Sep 2010 16:25

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

On 2-9-2010 3:25, Stephan Hennig wrote:
> Am 02.09.2010 15:02, schrieb Stephan Hennig:
>
>> The typesetting could be achieved without TeX by bundling MetaPost
>> with troff and a nice set of fonts.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Hm, a stand-alone MetaPost distribution as outlined above would really
>> need to be able to use system fonts, that is, OTF fonts, the same way
>> XeTeX and LuaTeX do. Taco, Hans, are there any plans into that direction?
>
> Oh, as troff probably isn't OTF aware, that would require MetaPost to do
> the typesetting by itself. Even if MetaPost learnt to typeset (with
> kerning)
>
> label("foo" infont <OTF font>, origin);
>
> for OTF fonts, that probably wouldn't include mathematics. So again, a
> full TeX installation were needed. Too bad.

well, mp is not tex and meant for simple graphics; if you want the 
fullpower of tex (and typesetting) you need to look at other tools or 
follow the reverse approach: use mp inside tex which is what mplib is for

Hans

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(Continue reading)

Dan Luecking | 2 Sep 2010 18:43

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on? (was: [mp-implementors] mpman: command-line syntax)

At 08:02 AM 9/2/2010, Stephan Hennig wrote:

>Am 02.09.2010 01:27, schrieb Karl Berry:
>>Also, the coupling is a good thing, not a bad thing.
>
>My question wasn't meant offensive.  It's just that I fear the 
>coupling to TeX distributions is hampering wider adoption of MetaPost.

I like to think the coupling is encouraging the
wider adoption of TeX distributions.

Dan

Daniel H. Luecking
Department of Mathematical Sciences
Fayetteville, Arkansas
http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/iaq.html 

--
http://tug.org/metapost/

Reinhard Kotucha | 2 Sep 2010 20:21

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

On 2 September 2010 Stephan Hennig wrote:

 > Am 02.09.2010 16:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:
 > > On 2-9-2010 3:25, Stephan Hennig wrote:
 > >>
 > >> for OTF fonts, that probably wouldn't include mathematics. So again, a
 > >> full TeX installation were needed. Too bad.
 > >
 > > well, mp is not tex and meant for simple graphics; if you want the
 > > fullpower of tex (and typesetting) you need to look at other tools
 > 
 > The problem is, MetaPost is for technical graphics, but those in turn 
 > often call for mathematical typesetting.  Just think about graphs ...  A 
 > troff + MetaPost bundle would fill the gap.  But this is all 
 > theoretical, since, personally, I'm fine with TeX.  I just wonder if 
 > such a bundle could bring more people to MetaPost.

I'm wondering how many people can be convinced to learn troff.

 > > or follow the reverse approach: use mp inside tex which is what
 > > mplib is for
 > 
 > Yeah, but what typesetting system are you suggesting that is portable 
 > and easy to learn?

TeX.  You need a system which people are familiar with.  What do
non-TeX-users do with the graphics then?  Convert them to jpeg in
order to use them in Word documents?

I don't believe that there are many people who don't use TeX but are

(Continue reading)

Stephan Hennig | 2 Sep 2010 22:10

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

[ removing mp-implementors list from recipients ]

Am 02.09.2010 18:43, schrieb Dan Luecking:
> At 08:02 AM 9/2/2010, Stephan Hennig wrote:
>
>> Am 02.09.2010 01:27, schrieb Karl Berry:
>>> Also, the coupling is a good thing, not a bad thing.
>>
>> My question wasn't meant offensive.  It's just that I fear the
>> coupling to TeX distributions is hampering wider adoption of MetaPost.
>
> I like to think the coupling is encouraging the
> wider adoption of TeX distributions.

Ha, ha!  I really like the idea.   But is MetaPost really visible 
outside TeX world so that it could indeed promote TeX?  I tend to think 
it is not, unfortunately.

Best regards,
Stephan Hennig
--
http://tug.org/metapost/

Stephan Hennig | 2 Sep 2010 22:53

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

Am 02.09.2010 20:21, schrieb Reinhard Kotucha:
> On 2 September 2010 Stephan Hennig wrote:
>
>   >  Am 02.09.2010 16:25, schrieb Hans Hagen:
>   >  >  On 2-9-2010 3:25, Stephan Hennig wrote:
>   >  >>
>   >  >>  for OTF fonts, that probably wouldn't include mathematics. So again, a
>   >  >>  full TeX installation were needed. Too bad.
>   >  >
>   >  >  well, mp is not tex and meant for simple graphics; if you want the
>   >  >  fullpower of tex (and typesetting) you need to look at other tools
>   >
>   >  The problem is, MetaPost is for technical graphics, but those in turn
>   >  often call for mathematical typesetting.  Just think about graphs ...  A
>   >  troff + MetaPost bundle would fill the gap.  But this is all
>   >  theoretical, since, personally, I'm fine with TeX.  I just wonder if
>   >  such a bundle could bring more people to MetaPost.
>
> I'm wondering how many people can be convinced to learn troff.

I haven't find the time to learn troff, yet I think the learning curve 
is less steep than TeX's.  But to cite from documentation of troff's 
mathematics package:

   Mathematical expressions are described in a language
   designed to be easy to use by people who know neither
   mathematics nor typesetting.

<URL:http://www.kohala.com/start/troff/v7man/eqn/eqn2e.ps>  [1]

(Continue reading)

Hans Hagen | 2 Sep 2010 23:46

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

On 2-9-2010 10:10, Stephan Hennig wrote:

> Ha, ha! I really like the idea.  But is MetaPost really visible
> outside TeX world so that it could indeed promote TeX? I tend to think
> it is not, unfortunately.

You hardly need any tex when dealing with metapost. For instance a 
context user can say:

\startMPpage
   draw fullcircle scaled 10cm ;
   draw textext("\bf Some text $a =1$"}
\stopMPpage

and when processing that with "context thatfile.tex" he/she will get a 
nicely cropped pdf.

Of course when doing complex math one needs to know a few things but 
that comes with the field.

Anyhow, every system that you want to use for complex matters takes time 
to learn and not everyone needs such complex system (or wants to spend 
time on such matters).

Hans

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     tel: 038 477 53 69 | voip: 087 875 68 74 | www.pragma-ade.com

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Aditya Mahajan | 3 Sep 2010 00:03

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Re: Does MetaPost catch on?

On Thu, 2 Sep 2010, Hans Hagen wrote:

> On 2-9-2010 10:10, Stephan Hennig wrote:
>
>> Ha, ha! I really like the idea.  But is MetaPost really visible
>> outside TeX world so that it could indeed promote TeX? I tend to think
>> it is not, unfortunately.
>
> You hardly need any tex when dealing with metapost. For instance a context 
> user can say:
>
> \startMPpage
>  draw fullcircle scaled 10cm ;
>  draw textext("\bf Some text $a =1$"}
> \stopMPpage
>
> and when processing that with "context thatfile.tex" he/she will get a nicely 
> cropped pdf.

I think that when using mplib, we should modify the macros draw, label, 
etc., so that troff is completely removed from the picture. That is, I 
should be able to use

\startMPpage
draw "\bf Some text $a = 1$" ;

label ("$\hat x$", (1cm,0)) ;
\stopMPpage

and have the label typeset by TeX. In mplib, is their any advantage of not

(Continue reading)

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