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Luke Kanies | 8 May 2008 16:35
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Tickets for 0.24.5


Hi all,

I created a 0.24.5 milestone this week, and I'm going to try to get  
the release out in the next couple of weeks.  It looks like we do need  
a maintenance release, since 0.25 won't come out until June at the  
earliest and there are some bugs that should clearly be fixed.

I've assigned a few tickets to the milestone already.  Are there other  
tickets that people think should get assigned to it?

Anyone interested in helping to fix any of these?

--

-- 
Health is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.
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Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com

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James Turnbull | 8 May 2008 17:07
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The wiki - directions and ideas


Hi all

Luke and I have been discussing the wiki and how its future development 
might pan out.  As a result I thought I'd canvas people for feedback.

Currently the wiki's layout and structure is fairly ad hoc and it's a
mix of wiki mark-up and REStructured Text (RST).  We'd like to make it 
more "manual" like or at least move a significant portion of the 
non-introductary material into a "manual" like format.

Some options and ideas:

1.  Move the wiki from Trac to something else.  Some options have been
proposed:

a. Drupal - the book format (does not support RST though AFAIK)
b. MoinMoin (supports RST)
c. Redmine's internal wiki (requires parsing the RST - currently not
possible in Redmine) - as part of a migration to Redmine over Trac.

2.  Restructure the wiki in place on Trac

3.  Leave the wiki alone - it's perfect!

Other ideas, thoughts, comments?

Regards

James Turnbull
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The Anarcat | 8 May 2008 17:21
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas

On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 01:07:55AM +1000, James Turnbull wrote:
> 2.  Restructure the wiki in place on Trac

Why not? I don't see the reason for switching the wiki engine.

--

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Steven Jenkins | 8 May 2008 18:08
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[Puppet Users] Re: [Puppet-dev] The wiki - directions and ideas


On Thu, May 8, 2008 at 11:07 AM, James Turnbull <james <at> lovedthanlost.net> wrote:
>
>  Hi all
>
>  Luke and I have been discussing the wiki and how its future development
>  might pan out.  As a result I thought I'd canvas people for feedback.
>
>  Currently the wiki's layout and structure is fairly ad hoc and it's a
>  mix of wiki mark-up and REStructured Text (RST).  We'd like to make it
>  more "manual" like or at least move a significant portion of the
>  non-introductary material into a "manual" like format.
>

I agree that the existing wiki is pretty hard to follow and find
useful information.  It might actually be helpful to coordinate a
'docathon' first and do a clean up of the existing data before making
a decision about any further wiki changes (e.g., migrating to a
different platform).

>  Some options and ideas:
>
>  1.  Move the wiki from Trac to something else.  Some options have been
>  proposed:
>
>  a. Drupal - the book format (does not support RST though AFAIK)
>  b. MoinMoin (supports RST)
>  c. Redmine's internal wiki (requires parsing the RST - currently not
>  possible in Redmine) - as part of a migration to Redmine over Trac.
>
(Continue reading)

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Luke Kanies | 8 May 2008 18:39
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas


On May 8, 2008, at 10:21 AM, The Anarcat wrote:

> On Fri, May 09, 2008 at 01:07:55AM +1000, James Turnbull wrote:
>> 2.  Restructure the wiki in place on Trac
>
> Why not? I don't see the reason for switching the wiki engine.

James kind of left out his motivations for thinking about this in the  
first place, so I'll mention a few shortcomings that Trac currently  
has.  I think James is a bit more cognizant of those shortcomings,  
though, because he's been spending a *lot* more time maintaining the  
wiki than I have (it's worth looking through a Timeline on the wiki  
and being amazed at how much time James has spent on it).

Wiki issues:

It has no structure on its own.  We as a community can attempt to  
enforce structure, but it's always going to be a fight between the  
cruft that develops over time and the structure we want.

It also doesn't support multiple form factors -- if you want the  
content of the wiki in a PDF, you're pretty stuck.

One thing I'd love to see change is the wiki docs stored in a db  
instead of in a version control system; using an SCM instead of a db  
automatically gives you multiple interfaces for accessing the data,  
and also makes it easy to write tools that validate or munge that data  
(e.g., extracting it into a PDF).
(Continue reading)

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Digant C Kasundra | 8 May 2008 18:48
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Re: [Puppet Users] The wiki - directions and ideas


--On Friday, May 09, 2008 1:07 AM +1000 James Turnbull 
<james <at> lovedthanlost.net> wrote:

>
> Hi all
>
> Luke and I have been discussing the wiki and how its future development
> might pan out.  As a result I thought I'd canvas people for feedback.
>
> Currently the wiki's layout and structure is fairly ad hoc and it's a
> mix of wiki mark-up and REStructured Text (RST).  We'd like to make it
> more "manual" like or at least move a significant portion of the
> non-introductary material into a "manual" like format.
>
> Some options and ideas:
>
> 1.  Move the wiki from Trac to something else.  Some options have been
> proposed:
>
> a. Drupal - the book format (does not support RST though AFAIK)
> b. MoinMoin (supports RST)
> c. Redmine's internal wiki (requires parsing the RST - currently not
> possible in Redmine) - as part of a migration to Redmine over Trac.
>
> 2.  Restructure the wiki in place on Trac
>
> 3.  Leave the wiki alone - it's perfect!
>
> Other ideas, thoughts, comments?
(Continue reading)

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Digant C Kasundra | 8 May 2008 18:52
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas


--On Thursday, May 08, 2008 11:21 AM -0400 The Anarcat 
<anarcat <at> anarcat.ath.cx> wrote:

>> 2.  Restructure the wiki in place on Trac
>
> Why not? I don't see the reason for switching the wiki engine.

Because trac makes me cry at night.  I don't know what it is about it, 
either.  One thing is that for some reason, I have to login twice before I 
can do anything.

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Digant C Kasundra | 8 May 2008 18:55
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas


--On Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:08 PM -0400 Steven Jenkins 
<steven.jenkins <at> gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree that the existing wiki is pretty hard to follow and find
> useful information.  It might actually be helpful to coordinate a
> 'docathon' first and do a clean up of the existing data before making
> a decision about any further wiki changes (e.g., migrating to a
> different platform).

Luke, did the doc maintainers list get migrated over?  If so, anyone 
interested in helping with this effort should jump on that list and we can 
do the docathon there.

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Luke Kanies | 8 May 2008 19:01
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas


On May 8, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Digant C Kasundra wrote:

>
> --On Thursday, May 08, 2008 12:08 PM -0400 Steven Jenkins
> <steven.jenkins <at> gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree that the existing wiki is pretty hard to follow and find
>> useful information.  It might actually be helpful to coordinate a
>> 'docathon' first and do a clean up of the existing data before making
>> a decision about any further wiki changes (e.g., migrating to a
>> different platform).
>
> Luke, did the doc maintainers list get migrated over?  If so, anyone
> interested in helping with this effort should jump on that list and  
> we can
> do the docathon there.

I didn't migrate the list, because it was so rarely used.

It'd be easy to recreate it, of course.  Should I?

--

-- 
Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing.
     --Wernher von Braun
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Luke Kanies | http://reductivelabs.com | http://madstop.com

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The Anarcat | 8 May 2008 19:11
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Re: The wiki - directions and ideas

On Thu, May 08, 2008 at 11:39:10AM -0500, Luke Kanies wrote:
> James kind of left out his motivations for thinking about this in the  
> first place, so I'll mention a few shortcomings that Trac currently  
> has.  I think James is a bit more cognizant of those shortcomings,  
> though, because he's been spending a *lot* more time maintaining the  
> wiki than I have (it's worth looking through a Timeline on the wiki  
> and being amazed at how much time James has spent on it).

Excellent, this is what I was looking for. I have a bit of experience
with Trac and MoinMoin so I might have valuable input here.

> Wiki issues:
> 
> It has no structure on its own.  We as a community can attempt to  
> enforce structure, but it's always going to be a fight between the  
> cruft that develops over time and the structure we want.

This is basically the nature of the wiki world in my opinion, although
Trac's wiki is a bit weaker than others in that regard. I think Puppet's
trac wiki is one of the better organised out there, to give you an idea.
:)

But I think you'll have the same issue with any wiki out there. If you
want to build formal documentation and have the manpower to do it,
docbook and friends are the way to go, IMO.

Drupal's book module could help a lot here, especially since Trac's wiki
already requires login to edit.

> It also doesn't support multiple form factors -- if you want the
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Gmane