10 bits per color

Hi
Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
Windows 7 is going to support it
Thanks!

Pierre

Re: 10 bits per color

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 07:46:01PM -0400, PierreLafrance1@... wrote:
> Hi
> Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
> Windows 7 is going to support it
> Thanks!
> 
> Pierre

Pygame uses the SDL library for graphics, so you should ask at the 
libsdl mailing list whether or not a future version of SDL will support 
it. http://www.libsdl.org/mailing-list.php

---
James Paige

Re: 10 bits per color

hi,

not yet...  highest is rgb 888, and yuv 422

As James mentions SDL 1.3 is getting more pixel formats - I can't
remember which ones they decided to support.  However a bunch of the
other non-SDL code in pygame can only use 888.  So maybe in the
future.

Note, that it'd be very rare if a screen can show that many colors -
most computer LCD screens are terrible these days (6bit rgb).  Often
in video screens for home when they talk about the new 10bit color, it
means 442 yuv, and most tv is broadcast with only 422.

pygame also doesn't support color profiles, which can be important for
color on your screen... and most importantly pygame doesn't know how
to change the color of your light bulp(yet!!!!) shining down on your
screen which changes the colors quite a lot.

You can mess with the gama settings if you want... but that can make
peoples monitors stick with that if you don't set it back!

cheers,

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:46 AM, PierreLafrance1@...
<PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
> Hi
> Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
> Windows 7 is going to support it
> Thanks!

Re: 10 bits per color

Re: 10 bits per color

René Dudfield wrote:
> hi,
> 
> not yet...  highest is rgb 888, and yuv 422
> 
> As James mentions SDL 1.3 is getting more pixel formats - I can't
> remember which ones they decided to support.  However a bunch of the
> other non-SDL code in pygame can only use 888.  So maybe in the
> future.
> 
> Note, that it'd be very rare if a screen can show that many colors -
> most computer LCD screens are terrible these days (6bit rgb).  Often
> in video screens for home when they talk about the new 10bit color, it
> means 442 yuv, and most tv is broadcast with only 422.
> 
> pygame also doesn't support color profiles, which can be important for
> color on your screen... and most importantly pygame doesn't know how
> to change the color of your light bulp(yet!!!!) shining down on your
> screen which changes the colors quite a lot.
> 
> You can mess with the gama settings if you want... but that can make
> peoples monitors stick with that if you don't set it back!
> 
> 
> cheers,
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:46 AM, PierreLafrance1@...
> <PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
>> Hi
>> Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
>> Windows 7 is going to support it
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
> 
> 
Hi all
Thanks for all these details.

I'm asking because new ATI graphic cards support HDMI 1.3 (HDMI support
DeepColor, meaning up to 16 bits per color RGB161616), and new TV with
retro light using LEDs has higher contrast (up to 2000000:1 wich is
about 126 DB dynamic range) and support HDMI 1.3 with DeepColor.  Lots
of DVD player also support DeepColor (not sure if any movie are
available in DeepColor) And Windows 7, comming october 22 support
RGB101010 and more.  I'm still looking for a Linux distro that has more
than 8 bits per color.
So all the industry is taking the turn with DeepColor.

Thanks,

Pierre Lafrance

Re: 10 bits per color

Just because tvs support it doesn't mean they can render it. Tvs
support the ntsc standard even if they can't display 100% of it. I
doubt if they have the CRI high enough to resolve 10 bit color on LCDs
even with LED backlighting. Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get
uneducated folk to buy another TV (like dynamic contrast, tru motion,
120 hz, 240 hz lcds, 800 hz plasmas, etc.)

On 10/1/09, PierreLafrance1@...
<PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
> René Dudfield wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> not yet...  highest is rgb 888, and yuv 422
>>
>> As James mentions SDL 1.3 is getting more pixel formats - I can't
>> remember which ones they decided to support.  However a bunch of the
>> other non-SDL code in pygame can only use 888.  So maybe in the
>> future.
>>
>> Note, that it'd be very rare if a screen can show that many colors -
>> most computer LCD screens are terrible these days (6bit rgb).  Often
>> in video screens for home when they talk about the new 10bit color, it
>> means 442 yuv, and most tv is broadcast with only 422.
>>
>> pygame also doesn't support color profiles, which can be important for
>> color on your screen... and most importantly pygame doesn't know how
>> to change the color of your light bulp(yet!!!!) shining down on your
>> screen which changes the colors quite a lot.
>>
>> You can mess with the gama settings if you want... but that can make
>> peoples monitors stick with that if you don't set it back!
>>
>>
>> cheers,
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:46 AM, PierreLafrance1@...
>> <PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
>>> Windows 7 is going to support it
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Pierre
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> Hi all
> Thanks for all these details.
>
> I'm asking because new ATI graphic cards support HDMI 1.3 (HDMI support
> DeepColor, meaning up to 16 bits per color RGB161616), and new TV with
> retro light using LEDs has higher contrast (up to 2000000:1 wich is
> about 126 DB dynamic range) and support HDMI 1.3 with DeepColor.  Lots
> of DVD player also support DeepColor (not sure if any movie are
> available in DeepColor) And Windows 7, comming october 22 support
> RGB101010 and more.  I'm still looking for a Linux distro that has more
> than 8 bits per color.
> So all the industry is taking the turn with DeepColor.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pierre Lafrance
>
>
>

--

-- 
Sent from my mobile device

Re: 10 bits per color

> Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get uneducated folk to buy another TV
LOL, I like this one.
But I'm not sure I understand your statement on NTSC.

This is what my research subject is all about.  My boss asked me to
optimize my hardware design (0.35u CMOS image sensor) to fit eyes and
equipement limitations.  But I need first to create RGB101010 software
to see if DeepColor makes sense or not, before optimizing CMOS chips.
Since I like Python and I have Pygame experiences, I wanted to do that
software with Pygames.

Thanks

Pierre

Luke Paireepinart wrote:
> Just because tvs support it doesn't mean they can render it. Tvs
> support the ntsc standard even if they can't display 100% of it. I
> doubt if they have the CRI high enough to resolve 10 bit color on LCDs
> even with LED backlighting. Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get
> uneducated folk to buy another TV (like dynamic contrast, tru motion,
> 120 hz, 240 hz lcds, 800 hz plasmas, etc.)
> 
> On 10/1/09, PierreLafrance1@...
<PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
>> René Dudfield wrote:
>>> hi,
>>>
>>> not yet...  highest is rgb 888, and yuv 422
>>>
>>> As James mentions SDL 1.3 is getting more pixel formats - I can't
>>> remember which ones they decided to support.  However a bunch of the
>>> other non-SDL code in pygame can only use 888.  So maybe in the
>>> future.
>>>
>>> Note, that it'd be very rare if a screen can show that many colors -
>>> most computer LCD screens are terrible these days (6bit rgb).  Often
>>> in video screens for home when they talk about the new 10bit color, it
>>> means 442 yuv, and most tv is broadcast with only 422.
>>>
>>> pygame also doesn't support color profiles, which can be important for
>>> color on your screen... and most importantly pygame doesn't know how
>>> to change the color of your light bulp(yet!!!!) shining down on your
>>> screen which changes the colors quite a lot.
>>>
>>> You can mess with the gama settings if you want... but that can make
>>> peoples monitors stick with that if you don't set it back!
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 12:46 AM, PierreLafrance1@...
>>> <PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>> Is Pygame supports 10 bits per color (ex RGB101010) ?
>>>> Windows 7 is going to support it
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Pierre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> Hi all
>> Thanks for all these details.
>>
>> I'm asking because new ATI graphic cards support HDMI 1.3 (HDMI support
>> DeepColor, meaning up to 16 bits per color RGB161616), and new TV with
>> retro light using LEDs has higher contrast (up to 2000000:1 wich is
>> about 126 DB dynamic range) and support HDMI 1.3 with DeepColor.  Lots
>> of DVD player also support DeepColor (not sure if any movie are
>> available in DeepColor) And Windows 7, comming october 22 support
>> RGB101010 and more.  I'm still looking for a Linux distro that has more
>> than 8 bits per color.
>> So all the industry is taking the turn with DeepColor.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Pierre Lafrance
>>
>>
>>
> 

Re: 10 bits per color

On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, PierreLafrance1@...
<PierreLafrance1@...> wrote:
>> Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get uneducated folk to buy another TV
> LOL, I like this one.
> But I'm not sure I understand your statement on NTSC.
>
> This is what my research subject is all about.  My boss asked me to
> optimize my hardware design (0.35u CMOS image sensor) to fit eyes and
> equipement limitations.  But I need first to create RGB101010 software
> to see if DeepColor makes sense or not, before optimizing CMOS chips.
> Since I like Python and I have Pygame experiences, I wanted to do that
> software with Pygames.
>
> Thanks
>
> Pierre
>

sounds like a fun project!

from my understanding of non-cutting-edge cmos sensors, they give out
8-16bit per pixel of range?  Then for color they use a bayer filter,
to filter out the various wave lengths of light... usually RGB
filters.  Of course if you took 1/3rd the resolution of that image,
then it could be 16/16/16 per pixel I guess.

In the same sense you could work with a pygame Surface - but think of
the colors in a different resolution.  Double the resolution, and
you've doubled the color depth.

But you might want to check out exr... http://www.openexr.com/  and
it's python bindings...
http://excamera.com/sphinx/articles-openexr.html

... thinking of it a bit more... you should be able to display higher
depths via opengl.

With pygame and opengl you should be able to set a higher bit depth...
if your driver supports it.
see: http://pygame.org/docs/ref/display.html#pygame.display.gl_set_attribute

Then send your data to the relevant bit depth gl texture, and you
should be able to display whatever your driver supports

cu.

Re: 10 bits per color

On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 09:34:35AM -0400, PierreLafrance1@... wrote:
> > Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get uneducated folk to buy another TV
> LOL, I like this one.
> But I'm not sure I understand your statement on NTSC.
> 
> This is what my research subject is all about.  My boss asked me to
> optimize my hardware design (0.35u CMOS image sensor) to fit eyes and
> equipement limitations.  But I need first to create RGB101010 software
> to see if DeepColor makes sense or not, before optimizing CMOS chips.
> Since I like Python and I have Pygame experiences, I wanted to do that
> software with Pygames.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Pierre

Regarding the limitations on the human eye: I am no expert on this, but 
from what I have read, the average human eye can distinguish somewhere 
from 7 to 10 million different colors.

RGB888 is 24 bit color, which is enough for over 16 million colors.

So by that measure, average human eyes should not be able to tell the 
difference between RGB888 and RGB101010

Of course, I am no expert on this, and I know that the way the rods and 
cones in an eye encode color is very different from the way digital 
color is encoded in pixels, so there may possibly be other reasons why 
RGB888 might be less that mathematically perfect for human color vision.

I would be interested to hear from someone who IS an expert. Do we have 
any Opticians on-list? :)

---
James Paige

Re: 10 bits per color

On Oct 1, 2009, at 9:50 AM, James Paige wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 01, 2009 at 09:34:35AM -0400,  
> PierreLafrance1@... wrote:
>>> Sounds lik yet another gimmick to get uneducated folk to buy  
>>> another TV
>> LOL, I like this one.
>> But I'm not sure I understand your statement on NTSC.
>>
>> This is what my research subject is all about.  My boss asked me to
>> optimize my hardware design (0.35u CMOS image sensor) to fit eyes and
>> equipement limitations.  But I need first to create RGB101010  
>> software
>> to see if DeepColor makes sense or not, before optimizing CMOS chips.
>> Since I like Python and I have Pygame experiences, I wanted to do  
>> that
>> software with Pygames.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Pierre
>
> Regarding the limitations on the human eye: I am no expert on this,  
> but
> from what I have read, the average human eye can distinguish somewhere
> from 7 to 10 million different colors.
>
> RGB888 is 24 bit color, which is enough for over 16 million colors.
>
> So by that measure, average human eyes should not be able to tell the
> difference between RGB888 and RGB101010
>
> Of course, I am no expert on this, and I know that the way the rods  
> and
> cones in an eye encode color is very different from the way digital
> color is encoded in pixels, so there may possibly be other reasons why
> RGB888 might be less that mathematically perfect for human color  
> vision.
>
> I would be interested to hear from someone who IS an expert. Do we  
> have
> any Opticians on-list? :)

The advantage with having more colors is more about dynamic range than  
how many colors can be perceived. 8 bits per color effectively gives  
you only 256 different color intensities, whereas 10 bits gives you 4x  
more, and floating point rgb gives you orders of magnitude more range.  
This allows much more detail to be preserved in the brightest and  
darkest parts of the image, where the 8-bit rgb values tend to alias  
and clip at the extreme ends, which is lossy.

-Casey