oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

hi,

how have you managed the situation where the client apparently wants
everything done yesterday and on a fixed bid contract and oh can you
demo it along the way to assuage our fears and we have an alpha test
coming up so how about we just get it looking not entirely like crap
from the outside even if underlying it is not great

vs.

really following a done-done iterative approach?

nothing new, an age-old question, an age-old issue. 

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Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Ted M. Young [ <at> jitterted]
<tedyoung@...> wrote:
> I find "just say no", works well.

yeah, except for those times when it doesn't.

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RE: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

It all comes down to setting expectations ahead of time.  If you get to the
point where the client is demanding these things mid project, your mistake
was much earlier in the project.

All is not lost - there is still time to educate the client.  That means
TALKING to the client, and doing so OFTEN.    If you are building functional
software with frequent releases, that helps to engage them and to make them
feel like they are aware of what is being built.  But you should also make
sure that your process is transparent, and that they are helping to drive
the direction of the project between releases.

They typically want the demos because they aren't confident in what you are
building or in the progress that you are making.  Most often, these are
clients who are not technical, so they already feel uncertain about what you
are doing.  More often than not, they've also been burned by a project that
went very badly in the past, despite assurances from the dev team that "all
is fine."

It's a frustration, but it can be overcome, and often the most challenging
clients become your biggest cheerleaders, if you handle the relationship
correctly.

Good luck.

Michelle

Dr. Michelle Smith
Managing Director
NimblePros LLC
msmith@...

-----Original Message-----
From: software_craftsmanship@...
[mailto:software_craftsmanship@...] On Behalf Of Raoul Duke
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 2:22 PM
To: software_craftsmanship@...
Subject: Re: [SC] oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Ted M. Young [ <at> jitterted]
<tedyoung@...> wrote:
> I find "just say no", works well.

yeah, except for those times when it doesn't.

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Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

Hi,

The question for me is how do you break down these asks. How do you slice things up so that the team can succeed?

On 7 Feb 2012, at 18:49, Raoul Duke <raould@...> wrote:
> everything done yesterday and on a fixed bid contract

This one isn't going to work . Can you discuss fixed price == fixed deadline. Sounds like there are some
hard deadline in already. Can you base ongoing work on the success of getting the alpha out?

> can you demo it along the way to assuage our fears

I'm imagining this isn't the problem!

> we have an alpha test coming up so how about we just get it looking not entirely like crap
> from the outside even if underlying it is not great

So here you can get interesting. The alpha test sounds like a first upcoming hard deadline.

Build up the backlog that's needed for the alpha test, and negotiate scope based on what the client is
looking to get out of the alpha test. Are they wanting to test the UI decisions? Can you build some of the
features purely as prototype, with no real function? Or can you cut features elsewhere so that you can
complete a smaller featured but well polished alpha?

> really following a done-done iterative approach?

The great thing about done-done is it never really is until it is - and what it is right now can be negotiated
based on what's more important.

Steve

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Sent from a device with a terrible keyboard

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Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Steve Tooke <steve.tooke@...> wrote:
> The great thing about done-done is it never really is until it is - and what it is right now can be negotiated
based on what's more important.

ah, that's an interesting line of thought -- how do people manage the
asymptotic approach to done-done-ness? i think some folks are more
stressed out the further away from done-done things are, whereas other
people are like "eh put it in the bug base, and honestly prioritize
it, and then we'll just defer it out of existence." (although i think
the latter can get harder when you are in a contractor-client
situation vs. a totally in-house thing.)

sincerely.

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Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:27 PM, kelly french <kelly.french@...> wrote:
> You'll find there a story that gives the best answer I've ever heard to
> those who keep shouting that the delivery date is to far away.

i see this subject matter as having (at least) two different gross levels:

(1) the level of "do the players grok reality, or are they really --
even if they profess to grok reality -- just going to be pushing to
hit deadlines deadlines deadlines"?

which leads to

(2) given players who are saying "just get it done", who has
successfully used nueuro linguisting programming, or nuanced
negotiation, or whatever else, to bring things around to a more sane
world?

breaking 2 down, there are (at least) two sides to it:

(A) the outside: the client's attitude.
(B) the inside: the builder's attitude -- are all their own ducks in a
row internally? are they willing to say no ever? are they capable of
understanding padding and that people get sick and that the bus number
is too low? etc.

so there's probably plenty of blame to go 'round.

of course, if *I* were running the world (B) wouldn't happen   

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Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

There's a fine argument to be made that fixed bid contracts are not
suitable for software projects.  Unknowns abound at the outset of a
project, and, in many cases, the context/domain which the software
will address changes as the projects proceeds.  We simply can't figure
out all these things to begin with.  Anybody who says otherwise is
lying.

The question is, can you convert an upfront-fixed-bid oriented client
to one who is comfortable buying software an iteration at a time?
Maybe some clients would never go for this.  But I believe most will,
if you can successfully explain why it is in their interests to do so.

Explain that the upfront promise is, nearly 100% of the time, either
1) an underestimation catastrophe which leads to unhappy everybody and
deadline overruns, or 2) gross overcharging in the form of a
overstuffed guess.  Neither of those scenarios is desirable for the
client.

On the other hand, buying by the iteration puts the client back in
control.  When will the project be over?  It'll be over when the
client says it's over.  At the end of each iteration, let the client
1) see what you've done and 2) take delivery of the code written so
far.  If the client is happy with what's done so far, and still has
money, then the work continues.

I use the term "iteration" as a purposefully vague block of time which
should match what you're comfortable with.  As a small outfit with
multiple concurrent projects, I have sold two week iterations
consisting of not less than 20 hours.  However you structure it, make
sure the client is clear what "iteration" means.

The key is to make the right value proposition.  All software projects
have risk.  But instead of the huge risk of a shaky six-month promise,
offer a much smaller bit of risk: a single iteration, with the
opportunity to course correct or even terminate at the end.

On Feb 7, 1:49 pm, Raoul Duke <rao...@...> wrote:
> hi,
>
> how have you managed the situation where the client apparently wants
> everything done yesterday and on a fixed bid contract and oh can you
> demo it along the way to assuage our fears and we have an alpha test
> coming up so how about we just get it looking not entirely like crap
> from the outside even if underlying it is not great
>
> vs.
>
> really following a done-done iterative approach?
>
> nothing new, an age-old question, an age-old issue. 

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Re: Re: oh no not again with the done-done vs. demoable?

Hi,

this discussion here is interesting, because all of you focus on the content of the contract. However the
major point to me is WHY do they want contracts like that? - I believe they want to delegate responsibility
(especially in case of failure). Try to bring this point into the discussion. Maybe you can explain that
this simply isn't possible. At least not if they do want working software. If they are only focussed on the
money involved - and the risk of losing it - then the approach is reasonable.

A client who wants software working at a fixed date cannot delegate the responsibility to get that done.
It's the client's project. And there usually are many more stakeholders involved than just the software
contractor. If they are really in a hurry they also should try to start a.s.a.p. instead of working on contracts.

Cheers,
Andreas

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