@TheSandyWalsh | 4 Jun 15:56 2010

How long can you work on a programming team before things get stale?

Does a craftsman have to set his own agenda and/or move around
frequently to keep learning?

Do you fear "running out of time" to develop your craft?

http://www.sandywalsh.com/2010/06/how-long-can-you-work-on-programming.html

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Kurt Häusler | 4 Jun 16:43 2010
Picon

Re: How long can you work on a programming team before things get stale?

I would agree with that. I guess it supports the notion of a
journeyman rather well.

It does reach a point however where it conflicts with the
craftsmanship focus on building long-term relationships with customers
and the software that continually evolves to deliver them value, but I
guess at this point the focus is less on learning at the technology
level and moves to keeping up with changes at the personal and
business levels.

In fact, there may even be more challenges, and thus more potential
for growth in maintaining brownfield software long term

From what I understand from reading Software Craftsmanship, craftsmen
don't write throw-away software and spend a lot of time maintaining
brownfield code, and thus probably don't have the luxury of starting
lots of greenfield projects and may not have such a great need or
desire for learning all the shiny new tools.

I suspect that there are other areas in which craftsmen can grow,
because they have such long-term relationships with codebases and
customers, that may be somewhat deeper or more profound than the
learning that a journeyman undergoes in his first year or two of a new
job.

I don't know, as I tend to change jobs every couple of years, but I
hope there are still opportunities for growth when working for a long
time in one place, as I do intend on finding a role where I feel
comfortable (but not too comfortable, comfort zones absolutely kill
growth) embedding myself long term, and developing the sort of long
(Continue reading)

Aaron Weiker | 4 Jun 17:03 2010

Re: How long can you work on a programming team before things get stale?

I think this is focusing on the wrong thing. To me a job comes down to just a few crucial things.
  • Do I feel productive?
  • Do I like my team?
  • Am I still learning at the pace I want?
If I can't answer yes to all of these questions, then it is time for change.
 
-Aaron

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
I would agree with that. I guess it supports the notion of a
journeyman rather well.

It does reach a point however where it conflicts with the
craftsmanship focus on building long-term relationships with customers
and the software that continually evolves to deliver them value, but I
guess at this point the focus is less on learning at the technology
level and moves to keeping up with changes at the personal and
business levels.

In fact, there may even be more challenges, and thus more potential
for growth in maintaining brownfield software long term

From what I understand from reading Software Craftsmanship, craftsmen
don't write throw-away software and spend a lot of time maintaining
brownfield code, and thus probably don't have the luxury of starting
lots of greenfield projects and may not have such a great need or
desire for learning all the shiny new tools.

I suspect that there are other areas in which craftsmen can grow,
because they have such long-term relationships with codebases and
customers, that may be somewhat deeper or more profound than the
learning that a journeyman undergoes in his first year or two of a new
job.

I don't know, as I tend to change jobs every couple of years, but I
hope there are still opportunities for growth when working for a long
time in one place, as I do intend on finding a role where I feel
comfortable (but not too comfortable, comfort zones absolutely kill
growth) embedding myself long term, and developing the sort of long
term focus talked about in Software Craftsmanship. Some things just
can't be built in a couple of years too. I can easily imagine a
software "masterpiece", or program comparable to the grander works of
the historical craftsmen, simply requiring an effort lasting somewhere
between 10 years and a lifetime.

I wonder if things ever got stale halfway through building a medieval cathedral.

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM, <at> TheSandyWalsh <sandy-b7g68Scx5M72IRrHB3mpnw@public.gmane.org> wrote:
> Does a craftsman have to set his own agenda and/or move around
> frequently to keep learning?
>
> Do you fear "running out of time" to develop your craft?
>
> http://www.sandywalsh.com/2010/06/how-long-can-you-work-on-programming.html
>
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Michael DiBernardo | 4 Jun 19:02 2010
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Re: How long can you work on a programming team before things get stale?

I would like to add to this by saying that some of the most
illuminating experiences I've ever had as a developer were in
situations where I spent a long stretch being grossly unproductive,
frustrated with my team, and feeling like I was learning almost
nothing at work.

Sometimes the grindstone is a very good teacher :)

-Debo

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Aaron Weiker <aaron@...> wrote:
> I think this is focusing on the wrong thing. To me a job comes down to just
> a few crucial things.
>
> Do I feel productive?
> Do I like my team?
> Am I still learning at the pace I want?
>
> If I can't answer yes to all of these questions, then it is time for change.
>
> -Aaron
>
> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Kurt Häusler <kurt.haeusler@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> I would agree with that. I guess it supports the notion of a
>> journeyman rather well.
>>
>> It does reach a point however where it conflicts with the
>> craftsmanship focus on building long-term relationships with customers
>> and the software that continually evolves to deliver them value, but I
>> guess at this point the focus is less on learning at the technology
>> level and moves to keeping up with changes at the personal and
>> business levels.
>>
>> In fact, there may even be more challenges, and thus more potential
>> for growth in maintaining brownfield software long term
>>
>> From what I understand from reading Software Craftsmanship, craftsmen
>> don't write throw-away software and spend a lot of time maintaining
>> brownfield code, and thus probably don't have the luxury of starting
>> lots of greenfield projects and may not have such a great need or
>> desire for learning all the shiny new tools.
>>
>> I suspect that there are other areas in which craftsmen can grow,
>> because they have such long-term relationships with codebases and
>> customers, that may be somewhat deeper or more profound than the
>> learning that a journeyman undergoes in his first year or two of a new
>> job.
>>
>> I don't know, as I tend to change jobs every couple of years, but I
>> hope there are still opportunities for growth when working for a long
>> time in one place, as I do intend on finding a role where I feel
>> comfortable (but not too comfortable, comfort zones absolutely kill
>> growth) embedding myself long term, and developing the sort of long
>> term focus talked about in Software Craftsmanship. Some things just
>> can't be built in a couple of years too. I can easily imagine a
>> software "masterpiece", or program comparable to the grander works of
>> the historical craftsmen, simply requiring an effort lasting somewhere
>> between 10 years and a lifetime.
>>
>> I wonder if things ever got stale halfway through building a medieval
>> cathedral.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 3:56 PM,  <at> TheSandyWalsh <sandy@...>
>> wrote:
>> > Does a craftsman have to set his own agenda and/or move around
>> > frequently to keep learning?
>> >
>> > Do you fear "running out of time" to develop your craft?
>> >
>> >
>> > http://www.sandywalsh.com/2010/06/how-long-can-you-work-on-programming.html
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups "software_craftsmanship" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to
>> > software_craftsmanship@...
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> > software_craftsmanship+unsubscribe@...
>> > For more options, visit this group at
>> > http://groups.google.com/group/software_craftsmanship?hl=en.
>> >
>> >
>>
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>>
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@TheSandyWalsh | 4 Jun 19:11 2010

Re: How long can you work on a programming team before things get stale?

Thanks Aaron.I think we're saying the same thing, except I
intentionally left out the part about team and you said it more
succinctly.

To put a finer point to it, my concern seems to be with the problem
domain and not the act of programming.

Craftsmanship, to me, is not just about writing the best code for the
customer but, perhaps equally or more so, really understanding the
problem space ... much of the joy of the art is the joy of solving
puzzles.

Do I want to become a Ph.d in the problem space or am I happy enough
to be a master? Can my code benefit more from a breadth of expertise
or a depth?

I'm sure everyone's rationale is different. I've just been thinking
about this aspect of it a lot lately.

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Will Sargent | 5 Jun 06:03 2010
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Re: Re: "Selling" Software Craftsmanship

On a similar note, I was struck by Pat Maddox's blog post recently about Agile:



It does speak to a growing awareness that being a good engineer is more than writing good code and delivering it on time.  I'm sad that things have even got to the point, though.

Will.

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Edward Gabriel Moraru <edward.moraru-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
thank you, sometimes I need somebody to tell me I'm not crazy :)
I didn't stop trying, but it seemed futile.

All the best,
Edward.


On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Rare Pleasures <email-ZUjghuDEhV4qdlJmJB21zg@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> and we are back to square one : how do we convince our fellows developers to
> step up their game ?

“He who knows not and knows not he knows not: he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not: he is simple - teach him. He
who knows and knows not he knows: he is asleep - wake him. He who
knows and knows he knows: he is wise - follow him.”

You could try seeking out like-minded souls.
I'm of the opinion that there are those you can teach, they show
eagerness for learning and testing their understanding against new
found knowledge.
Appear passionate about the methodologies you believe will improve
peoples abilities, be prepared to host katas, code reviews, learning
lunchs, mentor people and be in turn mentored. If one idea doesn't fly
try another.
Be content with small victories, turning even one junior developer
onto SC is a worthy achievement.
How do you eat an elephant ? One slice at a time.


Tony

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Cory Foy | 3 Jun 08:50 2010
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Software Craftsmanship Talk from XP2010 (Shameless Self-Promotion)

Hi All,

Yesterday (I think it was yesterday - it doesn't actually get dark, 
ever, here in Trondheim, so I have no idea) I gave a talk at XP2010 on 
Craftsmanship. I've put up the slides and the video I recorded here:

http://blog.coryfoy.com/2010/06/growing-and-fostering-craftsmanship/

My understanding is that it was also recorded by the conference hosts, 
so I'll update the post once that is done.

-- 
Cory Foy
http://www.coryfoy.com
http://twitter.com/cory_foy

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Markus Gaertner | 7 Jun 08:24 2010

Re: Software Craftsmanship Talk from XP2010 (Shameless Self-Promotion)

Slide 19 is gold, just pure gold.

Was definitely one of the highlights and most entertaining sessions.
Hope the word keeps to be spreading.

Kind regards
Markus Gaertner
http://blog.shino.de

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 08:50, Cory Foy <cory.foy@...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Yesterday (I think it was yesterday - it doesn't actually get dark, ever,
> here in Trondheim, so I have no idea) I gave a talk at XP2010 on
> Craftsmanship. I've put up the slides and the video I recorded here:
>
> http://blog.coryfoy.com/2010/06/growing-and-fostering-craftsmanship/
>
> My understanding is that it was also recorded by the conference hosts, so
> I'll update the post once that is done.
>
> --
> Cory Foy
> http://www.coryfoy.com
> http://twitter.com/cory_foy
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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>

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@TheSandyWalsh | 7 Jun 13:31 2010

Re: Software Craftsmanship Talk from XP2010 (Shameless Self-Promotion)

Nice! That's the kind of self-promotion I can handle.

Thanks for sharing!

-Sandy

 <at> TheSandyWalsh
www.sandywalsh.com

On Jun 3, 3:50 am, Cory Foy <cory....@...> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Yesterday (I think it was yesterday - it doesn't actually get dark,
> ever, here in Trondheim, so I have no idea) I gave a talk at XP2010 on
> Craftsmanship. I've put up the slides and the video I recorded here:
>
> http://blog.coryfoy.com/2010/06/growing-and-fostering-craftsmanship/
>
> My understanding is that it was also recorded by the conference hosts,
> so I'll update the post once that is done.
>
> --
> Cory Foyhttp://www.coryfoy.comhttp://twitter.com/cory_foy

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Matt Heusser | 7 Jun 18:15 2010
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Re: [software-testing] Is blogger down?

Let me be specific: Try to compose a new post.

/Reading/ seems fine.

--heusser

From: software-testing-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org [mailto:software-testing-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Matt Heusser
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 11:40 AM
To: software-testing <at> yahoogroups.com
Subject: [software-testing] Is blogger down?

 

 

I can't seem to publish on beta.blogger.com.  It's been > 2 hours now.

Does anyone else have a blogger blog? 

I'm guessing there's a testing story in there somewhere ...

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Matthew Heusser,
Personal Blog: http://xndev.blogspot.com/
Test Community Blog: http://softwaretestpro.com/blog/
Twitter: mheusser

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