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Kiran Badi | 1 Oct 2011 02:50

Re: Agile testing

I agree with Malcolm.If I have to say it in one line, you have smart enough to know when to pull and when to push and this applies to all stakeholders.

Also Just ensure that they often ask, why,where, when ,and how , if they are not asking this, then you can safely assume you will be working in thrilling project which you will always remember forever.

On 9/30/2011 5:05 AM, Malcolm Anderson wrote:
 

Riju

One of the biggest gains for QA folks moving to Scrum is an increase importance of their role.

As an irresponsible generalization developers create and testers destroy.
Developers need to learn to ask themselves the question, "how is someone going to break this?"  Testers can teach this to developers.

Testers can get involved in the design process and have their test plans roughed out before development begins.
This often leads to better designs because in a waterfall shop, the first time QA sees the design is often too late to do anything about design flaws.

Testers also quickly become the trusted lieutenants of the product owner who begin to say, "It's done if QA-John says it's done"

On the other hand, testers have to learn to be partners in the development process.  I have seen testers who didn't want to help developers because the needed to find bugs to justify their position, and how can they do that if the developers kill all the bugs before it gets to integration testing?

Also, testers have gotten used to being the last bastion of quality and will sometimes fight to the death that the product can't be released tomorrow, until the spelling mistake on a button is fixed, while at the same time insisting that they (the testing department) have 2 weeks to test and certify the product after the change of spelling has been implemented.

Be warned that some testers will view this whole agile practice as a bad thing because it exposes them to accountability that they have never before been exposed to. 

Also, QA managers will sometimes fight an agile adoption because they believe that it will threaten their job.  This can be a valid fear in certain organizations. 

I hope that list will be helpful in getting you started.


Does anyone else have any Waterfall-QA-Dev-Release-Nightmare-Stories to share?

--

Malcolm Anderson
Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer




On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Riju Kansal <riju.kansal <at> gmail.com> wrote:
 
Hi,

I have been given an opportunity to present a session on agile testing to a group of QA people. 

Some background about myself. I am also a QA in my present role but have worked in agile scrum teams as a developer, QA and SM. I am also a CSM. 

I want to utilise this opportunity to present to QA group who are working in highly waterfall environment, a really convincing case or details abt working in agile teams. What r the various Qs I can expect? They all are from the world of QA sign offs. 

But we have 3 new projects which have started using scrum since last 3-4 weeks. 

So I want to request help from this community for ideas and learnings and maybe some pointers to good info/material which I can use for this session (to infect people with agile) I have next week. 

Thanks in advance. 
Riju VK





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RonJeffries | 2 Oct 2011 02:42
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Re: Re: Scrum for OS development company

Hi rroy ...

On Sep 30, 2011, at 3:01 PM, rroy26 <at> rocketmail.com wrote:

May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment. 

I have done work in operating systems, compilers, implementation of relational database systems, automated psychological experiments, real-time human reaction measurement, and a number of financial applications.

Scrum would work for those, if people wanted to do it. So I'm pretty sure the domain isn't the issue. The people, on the other hand ... are.

Ron Jeffries
I'm really pissed off by what people are passing off as "agile" these days.
You may have a red car, but that does not make it a Ferrari.
  -- Steve Hayes



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Malcolm Anderson | 2 Oct 2011 05:52
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Re: Re: Scrum for OS development company

Roy

I can see why you feel like the Scrum community is trying to treat all situations like a nail that scrum is a hammer for.

If Scrum were a tool set, yours would be the perfectly appropriate reaction.

However, you will find, that the deeper you look into what Scrum is, the more you will discover that it a heuristic, not a tool set.

Scrum starts with the assumption that everyone is doing the best they can and that there are systemic issues that are preventing them from accomplishing more. 

From there the tools that Scrum does use (burndown charts, backlogs, story points and velocity) are diagnostic tools that allow an organization to decide what they should do next.

--

Malcolm Anderson
Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer









On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:01 PM, rroy26 <at> rocketmail.com <rroy26 <at> rocketmail.com> wrote:
 


This is a serious problem with Scrum community. They have a hammer (Scrum) and think everything is a nail.

May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment.


--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson <at> ...> wrote:
>
> +1 to Mark's comment.
>
> People who have made up their minds about, something they don't want to do,
> are rarely satisfied with any evidence that contradicts their position.
> Human beings will go to amazing lengths before admitting they are wrong.
>
> If your senior has publicly stated that "Scrum won't work here" then it
> won't work there (as long as your senior is at that company.) If you want
> to use Scrum, you will probably need to get promoted above him, or go work
> for another company.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
>
> Malcolm Anderson
> Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Mark Levison <mark <at> ...> wrote:
>
> > **

> >
> >
> > Conversely what makes OS development special? Its still software, it still
> > has users, ...
> >
> > Everyone thinks they're special and Scrum won't work for them. What is the
> > person's underlying concern?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > On Monday, September 26, 2011, Pankaj Gupta wrote:
> >
> >> **

> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies
> >> and it does work very well with Web based or for small product
> >> development(s).
> >>
> >> I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who
> >> successfully implemented SCRUM.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Pankaj
> >>
> >>
> >
>





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gwen.vaughan@rocketmail.com | 3 Oct 2011 09:22
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Re: Scrum masters: Consistency Vs Variety - what do you do?

Hi, I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for replying to my question.  The team I am in talked about the
responses I had and there was a general acknowledgement of how tough being a good scrum master can be & the
Scrum Master check list really shows that!  I found lots of other replies useful too - a lot of the issues you
can run into when your team is functioning well but your organisation isn't all that ready for agile are
things which we have encountered and it like 'Ah yeah, that's us!'.  
Also it is great to see how passionate everyone in this group is about agile and scrum - I'm glad I've joined!
Thanks again, Gwen

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, "ashish_wrt" <traderashish <at> ...> wrote:
>
> 
> I would suggest read or reread original paper by Hirotaka Takeuchi, Ikujiro Nonaka. They can explain much
better than I can.
> 
> I do not know what kind of orgs and teams you were working with and I have not provided context for my
statements which is my fault.
> 
> I am writing a blog post which would explain. I will send in couple of days.
> 
> On your statement "..high Scrum Maturity cannot be achieved in weeks or months. I believe it takes years,
and it takes constant attention to improvement and Scrum knowledge."
> 
> I would humbly ask -  Was Scrum the right approach for that org, the Team and their needs? 
> 
> (sometime when all you have is hammer everything looks likes nail.)
> 
> 
> I respect Scrum Masters. I am certified Scrum Master. Have done XP before I did scrum. I had been Scrum
Master of many teams in past.
> 
> 
> regards
> Ashish Gupta
> Certified Scrum Master, on request Scrum Coach, CTO, Entrepreneur, Agile Lean practitioner,Software
Architect, Engineer, Programmer, Agile Lean Coach, 11 years of Agile experience and 15 years of Self
organizing team experience.
> 
> 
> --- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoo
> --- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Charles Bradley - Scrum Coach CSM PSM I <chuck-lists2 <at> > wrote:
> >
> > Ashish,
> > 
> > Sutherland and Schwaber have published much evidence of hyper performing teams using Scrum.
> > 
> > Do you have any such published evidence for your hyper performing teams that no longer have a ScrumMaster?
> > 
> > I have serious doubts about your claims that after a few Sprints that software teams magically no longer
have the need for the duties fulfilled by a ScrumMaster.  I could see where it might work in an org that is
very slow and inefficient.  
> > 
> > I also tend to believe, based on my coaching experiences that a) Scrum experience does not equal Scrum
Mature and b) that high Scrum Maturity cannot be achieved in weeks or months.  I believe it takes years,
and it takes constant attention to improvement and Scrum knowledge.
> > 
> > 
> > -------
> > Charles Bradley, CSM, PSM I
> > Experienced Scrum Coach
> > My blog: http://scrumcrazy.wordpress.com/
> > 
> > 
> > >________________________________
> > >From: ashish_wrt <traderashish <at> >
> > >To: scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com
> > >Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 8:01 PM
> > >Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum masters: Consistency Vs Variety - what do you do?
> > >
> > >If you are doing scrum correctly, after few sprints, once team is experienced scrum team, Scrum Master
role should become quite redundant - limited to help resolve impediments and schedule and run meetings.
If that does not happen, you need to change the Scrum Master because he has not done his job correctly.
(Remember scrum team are self organizing teams.)
> > >
> > >Generally I prefer to keep the same scrum master as he understands the team dynamics and has already
built good relationships with the team and the stakeholders.
> > >
> > >Ashish
> > >http://www.agilewrap.com
> > >
> > >--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, "JackM" <jack <at> > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Answers below...
> > >> 
> > >> Hope it helps
> > >> jack
> > >> www.agilebuddy.com
> > >> 
> > >> --- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, "gwen.vaughan <at> " <gwen.vaughan <at> > wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Hi,
> > >> > 
> > >> > Does your team always have the same scrum master or do they vary?  If you vary - how often? Each sprint,
each release, each project, etc?
> > >> > 
> > >> > Which approach do you find works better for your team?
> > >> 
> > >> Jack> I generally keep the scrum master consistent. I believe it's better that way. It takes some time
to groom a Scrum Master. It's not an easy role so you want to give them enough time to get into the groove. If
you were intending to rotate, i would rotate on release boundaries.
> > >> 
> > >> It's a pretty tough role and so you can't just have anyone do it!
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> > 
> > >> > We have a bit of mix - some consistency but also a bit of variety now and then depending on how available
our resources are, how the sprint goal might be and who would like to Scrum Master.
> > >> > 
> > >> > I find this works fairly well; variety is good because a change is as good as a rest, and you get the
opportunity to see how other people handle the role of Scrum Master but then sometimes there is not as much
consistency as I would like and also it seems that an individual may not have enough consecutive sprints as
Scrum Master to refine their skills.
> > >> > 
> > >> > So I was hoping to understand what other people are doing and how they are funding it, to see if there a
good way to achieve a balance between a new Scrum Master every sprint and the same Scrum Master every sprint.
> > >> > 
> > >> > All comments welcome!
> > >> > 
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> > Gwen
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >------------------------------------
> > >
> > >To Post a message, send it to:  scrumdevelopment <at> 
> > >To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe <at> ! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

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Mark Levison | 3 Oct 2011 17:02
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Re: Scrum for OS development company

Roy (??), - the point came across as as arrogant I'm sorry I was writing from a phone where its hard to be nuanced and subtle.

Some thoughts:
- Scrum/Agile/Kanban et al will fail in 100% of cases when people decide a priori that it will fail. I find the many people who demand case studies at this stage are really saying I'm special and different so Scrum et al won't work for me.
- I've never seen a software development project (even hardware) that didn't benefit from frequent feedback and opportunities to improve.
- OS Development is hard but its still software development - which Agile Principle doesn't apply? Which practices don't apply?

Cheers
Mark Levison

Mark Levison | Agile Pain Relief Consulting | Certified Scrum Trainer
Agile Editor <at> InfoQ | Blog | Twitter | Office: (613) 862-2538
Recent Entries: Story Slicing How Small is Small Enough, Why use an Agile Coach


On Friday, September 30, 2011, rroy26 <at> rocketmail.com wrote:
 


This is a serious problem with Scrum community. They have a hammer (Scrum) and think everything is a nail.

May be his seniors are right. How can we be sure without understanding his needs and environment.

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Anderson <malcolm.b.anderson <at> ...> wrote:
>
> +1 to Mark's comment.
>
> People who have made up their minds about, something they don't want to do,
> are rarely satisfied with any evidence that contradicts their position.
> Human beings will go to amazing lengths before admitting they are wrong.
>
> If your senior has publicly stated that "Scrum won't work here" then it
> won't work there (as long as your senior is at that company.) If you want
> to use Scrum, you will probably need to get promoted above him, or go work
> for another company.
>
> Good luck.
>
> --
>
> Malcolm Anderson
> Scrum Coach & Agile Engineer
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 8:20 AM, Mark Levison <mark <at> ...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Conversely what makes OS development special? Its still software, it still
> > has users, ...
> >
> > Everyone thinks they're special and Scrum won't work for them. What is the
> > person's underlying concern?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > On Monday, September 26, 2011, Pankaj Gupta wrote:
> >
> >> **
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> My seniors says that SCRUM is not applicable for OS development companies
> >> and it does work very well with Web based or for small product
> >> development(s).
> >>
> >> I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who
> >> successfully implemented SCRUM.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Pankaj
> >>
> >>
> >
>



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Seyit Caglar Abbasoglu | 3 Oct 2011 17:23
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Re: Scrum for OS development company

From what I've seen, as a project/domain gets harder, that project benefits more from early/frequent feedback and continuous improvement. To setup and persist an environment to maximize those benefits however, always requires patience, determination, courage and trust. IMO that's where most people fail (especially without proper guidance).


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Editeur | 3 Oct 2011 18:11
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Dialogue Sheets for Retrospectives and Beyond

The Methods & Tools magazine has just released in the article "Dialogue Sheet" by Allan Kelly. The Dialogue
Sheet is a new technique for team retrospectives. This technique involves a large sheet of paper that help
to create good discussion and teamwork in Agile and Scrum projects.

http://www.methodsandtools.com/archive/archive.php?id=124

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JoseS | 3 Oct 2011 19:37
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Re: Scrum for OS development company

Pankaj,

In my experience the challenge with Scrum is the user story. Non-application development efforts see them
as artificial because of the emphasis on the user ("as a user, I want to ... so that ...") There's no rule that
says you MUST do it that way. The functionality can be decomposed and Scrum applied with no issues. The
other push back is the short nature of the sprints. Again, decomposing the functionality will allow Scrum
to be used.

With that said, it is not always a welcomed approach. If you have a product development methodology (Scrum
mixes both product and project methodologies) you want to use there's an Agile domain-agnostic approach
that has been used in multiple domains (hardware, software when waterfall was
required/forced/demanded by management, defense missile engineering, biomedical research and
device development, education, education, manufacturing, construction, etc). 

It originated at Intel for their semiconductor design projects (see Timm Esque's book "No Surprises
Project Management" for the story). It is based on commitments made by the team members (no different from
Scrum) and regular planning and review cycles. Timm, his business partner, and I have agreed to call it
Commitment-Based Project Management or CBPM for its focus on commitments. 

If interested let me know and I can provide details. You can also go to Timm's website
(http://ensemblemc.com/) or my website (http://www.pmlead.com). There's also a LinkedIn group,
"Project Acceleration thru Commitment-Based Project Management" where many PMs gather to exchange ideas.

All the best,

Jose Solera, PMP, CSM, CSPO

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Pankaj Gupta <synopsys_pankaj <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Hi,
> 
> My seniors says that SCRUM is not�applicable�for OS development companies and it does work
very well with Web based or for small product development(s).
> 
> I'm interested to know the names of OS development companies who successfully implemented SCRUM.
> 
> Thanks,
> Pankaj
>

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Emma Garland | 4 Oct 2011 00:33
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Re: Training for all scrum members

Thanks everyone for your replies. I took a lot from the answers, and fed back to my team who took on board all the replies.

I think essentially it is apparent that we need more agile training, to establish a common vocabulary, and make sure everyone is up to scratch with scrum. It was also an interesting idea to have a team library and to get a consultant in to train us for a few days. I summarized the main points and look forward to us rolling out some of the ideas over the coming sprints.

Thanks
Emma



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Emma Garland | 4 Oct 2011 00:39
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Re: Training for all scrum members

Thanks everyone for your replies. I took a lot from the answers, and fed back to my team who took on board all the replies.

I think essentially it is apparent that we need more agile training, to establish a common vocabulary, and make sure everyone is up to scratch with scrum. It was also an interesting idea to have a team library and to get a consultant in to train us for a few days. I summarized the main points and look forward to us rolling out some of the ideas over the coming sprints.

Thanks
Emma



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