Discussion of SW Development using SCRUM

Andrew Ramsay | 1 May 2009 02:28

Re: Re: Scrum User Group Closes

I like Cory's post. The agreement which attempts to create corporate intellectual property by asserting that the common jargon expression "Scrum User Group" and its derivatives are reserved concepts is just an unbelievable waste of time, energy, and money. What is the value added to the engineering community? Zero. Trademarking a logo graphic I can understand. Jargon in common usage -- quite a stretch. What's next: labeling every scrumalliance.org web page top and bottom "PROPRIETARY"?

A. Ramsay.

----- Original Message -----

From: Cory Foy

To: scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 12:47 AM

Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [scrumdevelopment] Re: Scrum User Group Closes

Hi Howard,

First, thank you for getting an official response. I appreciate someone from the SA coming forward to make a statement on this.

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, "howardsublett"
> The Following is a message from Jim Cundiff, Managing Director at the Scrum Alliance:
>
> Registering our various trademarks is the best way for us to
> protect our intellectual properties (IP). The name Scrum User Group
> and the associated Scrum User Group logo are trademarks claimed by
> the Scrum Alliance.

Yes, we are aware of Intellectual Property discussions. But Scrum User Group being an "Intellectual Property"?

> We offer the use of these marks to organizations and groups of
> individuals who wish to be registered as a Scrum Alliance Scrum
> User Group.

What if you don't want to be listed as a SA Scrum User Group, but just as a Scrum User Group? Since you registered the trademarks (which I thought the document referred to as ServiceMarks) that's pretty clear.

I guess the bigger question is what happened to Individuals and Interactions over Processes and Tools? Are we supposed to believe we can change organizations and focus on the foundational principles from the manifesto when the very community groups are asked to sign legal documents?

> We were under the impression that the Orlando Scrum User Group
> desired to be listed as a Scrum Alliance Scrum User Group. As such
> this group would be entitled to the use of a localized Scrum
> Alliance Scrum User Group logo and all other rights and privileges
> associated with being a licensed and registered Scrum Alliance
> Scrum User Group.

Licensed Group? What's the licensing process? What would I as an attendee get out of a licensed group? Are we going to have Certified Scrum User Group Leader Certifications? Maybe Scrum Leader of User Group (SLUG)?

> This includes customized postings on our website, potential
> sponsorship funding for local events and featured speakers provided
> by the Scrum Alliance. Other Scrum User Groups have found these
> benefits to be of great value.

The problem isn't the support - it's the licensing agreement. I get the support of the Agile Alliance by being an AA member - not by having to sign licensing agreements and using "Trademarks".

> We have not requested the Orlando Scrum User Group cease operations
> nor do we intend to start another Scrum User Group in Orlando.

Darn good thing, because I'd be surprised if you'd get much community participation.

> Only that if the local Scrum User Group wishes to use our name and
> logo and be recognized as a Scrum Alliance Scrum User Group that a
> representative from the group sign a licensing agreement. There is
> no fee associated with this agreement, the Scrum Alliance does not > charge fees to local Scrum User Groups.

They are using neither your name nor your logo. Well, I guess now that you all are laying trademarks to 'Scrum User Group'.

> Do not let this licensing agreement hinder or stop you from meeting
> as an organized group of Scrum users. If you do not wish your local
> user group to be registered as a Scrum Alliance Scrum User Group
> then there is no need for you to sign a licensing agreement with
> the Scrum Alliance.

But, to call ourselves a "Scrum User Group" we have to have approval to use your "IP" by signing said agreement? And you don't think that won't hinder or stop people in this day and age?

These groups are run by volunteers pushing out support to the communities. To think that you all would do anything but bend over backwards to foster and support the people that put these groups together shows what I can only think of as arrogance or a lack of touch with the community.

Further, since according to the USPTO you only registered the Trademark on December 18th of 2008, I wonder how much claim you have to this. There have been groups around for years using "Scrum User Group" that has been just fine - groups listed on your own website.

I know this isn't the right forum, and I'm sorry for hijacking here. I can say that I've happily registered http://tampascrumusergroup.com and have no intention of signing any sort of a document, since I don't want to be listed on the site.

Cory

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stephen.clothier | 1 May 2009 04:02

Stephen Clothier is on leave.


I will be out of the office starting  01.05.2009 and will not return until
04.05.2009.

I will periodically read and respond to your message latest when I return.
For urgent requests please contact Roger.Schaer <at> aofoundation.org

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Cory Foy | 1 May 2009 04:29

Follow up to the recent trademark incident

Hi All,

This morning, a mutual friend connected Jim and I directly via email. We've already exchanged several
emails, and he and I are going to be talking via phone tomorrow to discuss how to hammer out a way to meet what
the Scrum Alliance sees as a concern (the misuse of the "Scrum" name) balanced with the need to allow user
groups and community leaders to not have to worry about signing on a dotted line.

I admit that I am quite happy to see the response from the SA so far, and I look forward to working with Jim. I'll
be happy to post more back here once I've had the chance to talk to him.

-- 
Cory Foy
http://www.cornetdesign.com
http://www.agileflorida.com

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Cory Foy | 1 May 2009 04:38

Re: Scrum User Group Closes (Reopens immediately we hope)

Hi Ken,

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Ken Schwaber <ken.schwaber <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Everyone may want to take a deep breath. Whatever is going on here is  
> not based on anything to be concerned with. The ScrumAlliance does not  
> want to restrict user groups. User groups actually have nothing to do  
> with the ScrumAlliance, except that if they list themselves with the  
> ScrumAlliance I know who to contact. I've recently contacted user  
> groups in Poland, Dallas, and Phoenix so I could do presentations  
> during their meetings. The intention of registration is so the user  
> group can be provisioned, not restricted. Everyone makes mistakes, and  
> email is the worst possible way to rectify them, since everyone  
> projects their worst fears.

The implication from the document that was sent out was that the term "Scrum User Group" was listed as a
Trademark, and as such, that the SA wanted to limit the use of it. So while the SA didn't want to restrict the
user groups, they didn't give much option just based on what was sent out other than renaming the group.

I agree that email (and, by extension, mailing lists) are not the best way to rectify. However, this
conversation has led to Jim and I being able to contact each other and find a way that is mutually beneficial
to both the SA and the needs of the community and UG leaders. So I'd consider it worth it. And really, I found
the group to be rather civilized, which was nice to see.

> If the Orlando user group disbanded itself, I suspect there wasn't  
> much there in the first place,

Ok, well, almost civilized. I guess it's not a conversation without at least one uncalled for comment. Oh well.

-- 
Cory Foy
http://www.cornetdesign.com
http://www.agileflorida.com

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Ron Jeffries | 1 May 2009 04:52

Re: Re: Scrum User Group Closes (Reopens immediately we hope)

Hello, Cory.  On Thursday, April 30, 2009, at 10:38:51 PM, you
wrote:

>> If the Orlando user group disbanded itself, I suspect there wasn't  
>> much there in the first place,

> Ok, well, almost civilized. I guess it's not a conversation
> without at least one uncalled for comment. Oh well.

I don't know, I can kind of see Ken's point. Get some weird letter
about trademark and react by immediately disbanding? I would not
associate that with a deep commitment of the group to its members,
principles, whatever.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
If we're not shipping our software when it's ready,
it's poor business practice.
If we're not sure whether our software is ready,
it's poor software practice.
http://www.xprogramming.com/blog/Page.aspx?display=FrequentReleases

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cbeaves4 | 1 May 2009 05:12

Re: Scrum User Group Closes (Reopens immediately we hope)

As a volunteer I look at return on investment. While I have disbanded the group, this does not mean others
cannot step up and lead the group.  I am no longer interested in being part of this organization because the
return on investment was low.

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Cory.  On Thursday, April 30, 2009, at 10:38:51 PM, you
> wrote:
> 
> >> If the Orlando user group disbanded itself, I suspect there wasn't  
> >> much there in the first place,
> 
> > Ok, well, almost civilized. I guess it's not a conversation
> > without at least one uncalled for comment. Oh well.
> 
> I don't know, I can kind of see Ken's point. Get some weird letter
> about trademark and react by immediately disbanding? I would not
> associate that with a deep commitment of the group to its members,
> principles, whatever.
> 
> 
> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> www.xprogramming.com/blog
> If we're not shipping our software when it's ready,
> it's poor business practice.
> If we're not sure whether our software is ready,
> it's poor software practice.
> http://www.xprogramming.com/blog/Page.aspx?display=FrequentReleases
>

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Eric Deslauriers | 1 May 2009 05:33

Re: Interviewing for engagement style

Hi everyone,

I was working with a consultant the other day on one of our projects. She's super technical and extremely bright, however she exhibited difficulty getting to the point, the crux of the issue, causing the conversation to lag.

Since I have interviewing on the brain (assuming we get a pending req approved), it occurred to me that someone with this conversational style would not be a good fit for conversations with senior leadership, which the position I'm hoping to get will need to do on a regular basis.

Anyone have any pointers for some interview exercises to suss for that? I could try to figure it out, but my brain hurts and why reinvent the wheel anyways? <grin>

Thanks everyone!!
--
Eric D
Sandy Eggo, CA (Ramona)

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beckfordp@btopenworld.com | 1 May 2009 10:34

Re: Scrum User Group Closes (Reopens immediately we hope)

Hi Ron,

--- In scrumdevelopment <at> yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Cory.  On Thursday, April 30, 2009, at 10:38:51 PM, you
> wrote:
> 
> >> If the Orlando user group disbanded itself, I suspect there wasn't  
> >> much there in the first place,
> 
> > Ok, well, almost civilized. I guess it's not a conversation
> > without at least one uncalled for comment. Oh well.
> 
> I don't know, I can kind of see Ken's point. 

Can you? I don't think Ken should have a point personally. A simple "sorry" would have sufficed.

Paul.

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Ron Jeffries | 1 May 2009 12:04

Re: Re: Scrum User Group Closes (Reopens immediately we hope)

Hello, cbeaves4.  On Thursday, April 30, 2009, at 11:12:15 PM, you
wrote:

> As a volunteer I look at return on investment. While I have
> disbanded the group, this does not mean others cannot step up and
> lead the group.  I am no longer interested in being part of this
> organization because the return on investment was low.

If I started a group and it didn't make me happy I would disband it
too. I'm not sure how that fits in with the stupid letter from the
SA though.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
I could be wrong. I frequently am.

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Peter Stevens (calendar | 1 May 2009 12:48

Re: Re: Interviewing for engagement style

Hi Eric,

Once upon a time, when I was a hiring manager, I looked for three things during an interview: passion, personality and skills. Of the three, only skills are learnable. The others, well, you've got them or you don't.

I've heard a variation of this strategy : passion, personality, presentation. I'm not too comfortable with that variation, because presentation might lack substance. Or it might just be contained within skills. Actually it sounds like it might be an important issue for the position you want to fill.

My 2cts, from the twilight zone.

Cheers,

Peter

Eric Deslauriers schrieb:

Hi everyone,

I was working with a consultant the other day on one of our projects. She's super technical and extremely bright, however she exhibited difficulty getting to the point, the crux of the issue, causing the conversation to lag.

Since I have interviewing on the brain (assuming we get a pending req approved), it occurred to me that someone with this conversational style would not be a good fit for conversations with senior leadership, which the position I'm hoping to get will need to do on a regular basis.

Anyone have any pointers for some interview exercises to suss for that? I could try to figure it out, but my brain hurts and why reinvent the wheel anyways? <grin>

Thanks everyone!!
--
Eric D
Sandy Eggo, CA (Ramona)

-- Peter Stevens, CSM, CSP Ken Schwaber CSM Training in Zürich: www.tinyurl.com/Ken-in-ZH www.scrum-breakfast.com tel: +41 44 586 6450

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