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MarvinToll.com | 2 Nov 2010 18:26

Principle #11

Ron: All I wanted to do was elaborate a bit on Principle #11... now look what we've done!

https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/ambler/entry/reworking_the_agile_manifesto14?lang=en
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MarvinToll.com | 2 Nov 2010 18:42

Re: Principle #11

Scott, 

I'm glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments: 

1) I never suggested we should iterate the Values... and don't think there is a need to substitute two words. 

2) The fundamental problem Principle... that is #11... has not been touched. Altering of Principle #11 is a
systemic change focusing on scaling Agile. 

3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came from someone in a research capacity... vs.
someone that spends their day implementing 'working software'. 

Perhaps you could make it to the 'Agile and Beyond' Conference? This would be a good place to have a wide-open
face-to-face discussion on the topic. 

http://AgileAndBeyond.org 

_Marvin 

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Ron: All I wanted to do was elaborate a bit on Principle #11... now look what we've done!
> 
> https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/mydeveloperworks/blogs/ambler/entry/reworking_the_agile_manifesto14?lang=en
>
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JeffGrigg | 3 Nov 2010 00:20
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Re: Principle #11

Being "sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams" doesn't strike me as a particularly
"Agile Manifesto" kind of statement.  If we're so flexible as to include >NON-AGILE<, then how is this a
"call to arms" statement of values for >Being AGILE<?

I like some of their wording changes.  But some of sounds a bit like political committee work.

--- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll <at> ...> wrote:
> 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came
>    from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that
>    spends their day implementing 'working software'.
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scott | 3 Nov 2010 14:03
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Re: Principle #11

Well, it said the "ecosystem" must evolve to support both - it's about the surrounding organization as
opposed to the agile team itself. This does seem important to success in a world where many (most? all?)
organizations have to support both and where many organizations will be evolving from only supporting non-agile.

scott

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, "JeffGrigg" <jeffreytoddgrigg <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Being "sufficiently flexible to still support non-agile [...] teams" doesn't strike me as a
particularly "Agile Manifesto" kind of statement.  If we're so flexible as to include >NON-AGILE<, then
how is this a "call to arms" statement of values for >Being AGILE<?
> 
> I like some of their wording changes.  But some of sounds a bit like political committee work.
> 
> --- "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll <at> > wrote:
> > 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came
> >    from someone in a research capacity... vs. someone that
> >    spends their day implementing 'working software'.
>
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Kay | 3 Nov 2010 15:06
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Re: Principle #11

Are you saying that Scott wrote this article because of you?

Kay P

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, "MarvinToll.com" <MarvinToll <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Scott, 
> 
> I'm glad you have taken seriously my suggestion to iterate the Principles - few folks have. A few comments: 
> 
> 1) I never suggested we should iterate the Values... and don't think there is a need to substitute two
words. 
> 
> 2) The fundamental problem Principle... that is #11... has not been touched. Altering of Principle #11 is
a systemic change focusing on scaling Agile. 
> 
> 3) This 'organizational ecosystem' deal sounds like it came from someone in a research capacity... vs.
someone that spends their day implementing 'working software'. 
> 
> Perhaps you could make it to the 'Agile and Beyond' Conference? This would be a good place to have a
wide-open face-to-face discussion on the topic. 
> 
>
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Chris Wheeler | 3 Nov 2010 20:29
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A trend in career creation?

All,

Lately I've come across a number of people on the interweb who mix a number
of buzz words together in order to create some title, and then create
websites/linkedin profiles that are even more bizarre. For example, I've
seen the titles "Agile Change Agent", "Community Change Wizard", and "Agile
Change Evangilista", all coupled with claims that they "foster", or
"cultivate" or "embrace" some type of soft-skill-can't-put-a-finger-on-it
nonsense.

What the hell is going on?

This sounds a lot like "I don't have a real job, so I'll give my self a
title and make nebulous claims that are obliquely attached to something that
is trendy".

Has anyone else noticed this, and is anyone else a little annoyed by it?

Chris.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Kay | 3 Nov 2010 21:09
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Re: A trend in career creation?

Chris Wheeler wrote:

> Has anyone else noticed this, and is anyone else a little annoyed by it?

Yes, and somewhat.
But times is hard, and we do what we can. <grin>

I'm bothered by the loose use of the word agile.  I'm in the Washington, DC area, and I have friends who work for
the feds, in one way or another.  Most people who use the word "agile" haven't the foggiest idea what it is. 
Mostly they really mean they don't do documentation.

This in spite of visits by Scott Ambler, Uncle Bob, and various other gen-u-wine agilista's.

One friend who works with a lot of various programmers and programming companies says most of them just want
to "get the s*t out the door and make money."  Which is not a very agile attitude IMHO.

Are you noticing the "soft titles" because you're hiring?  Or for some other reason?

I'm curious why the titles bother you?  Is it because it looks to you like they have no *real* hard skills?  Or
another reason?  

I think your being a little annoyed is perfect valid... I'm just curious about your reasons.

Kay P

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, Chris Wheeler <christopher.wheeler <at> ...> wrote:
>
> All,
> 
> Lately I've come across a number of people on the interweb who mix a number
(Continue reading)

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Ron Jeffries | 3 Nov 2010 21:34
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Re: A trend in career creation?

Hello, Chris.  On Wednesday, November 3, 2010, at 3:29:07 PM, you
wrote:

> Has anyone else noticed this, and is anyone else a little annoyed by it?

What are you, our resident Certified WhineMaster? :)

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
To Fly, Flip Away Backhanded -- Master Frisbee
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Chris Wheeler | 3 Nov 2010 21:35
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Re: A trend in career creation?

I don't believe in certifications. I'm Community Whine Agent.

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:34 PM, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> acm.org> wrote:

> Hello, Chris.  On Wednesday, November 3, 2010, at 3:29:07 PM, you
> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone else noticed this, and is anyone else a little annoyed by it?
>
> What are you, our resident Certified WhineMaster? :)
>
> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> To Fly, Flip Away Backhanded -- Master Frisbee
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> To Post a message, send it to:   extremeprogramming <at> eGroups.com
>
> To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
> extremeprogramming-unsubscribe <at> eGroups.com
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(Continue reading)

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Dave Rooney | 3 Nov 2010 21:36
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Re: A trend in career creation?

On 03/11/2010 4:34 PM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Hello, Chris.  On Wednesday, November 3, 2010, at 3:29:07 PM, you
> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone else noticed this, and is anyone else a little annoyed by it?
> What are you, our resident Certified WhineMaster? :)
>

LOL!! Now THAT is a certification I'll put after my name!!
--

-- 
Dave Rooney
Westboro Systems
Web: http://www.WestboroSystems.com
Blog: http://practicalagility.blogspot.com
Twitter: daverooneyca
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