Francesco Cirillo | 1 Oct 02:30 2009

XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

Hi Ron,

Just read this post of yours:

"Ken Schwaber, co-creator of Scrum, says publicly that perhaps only 25% of
Scrum teams get the full benefit of Scrum. Jeff Sutherland, the other
co-creator, says publicly that all the high-performance Scrum teams he has
seen used XP-style practices.In those two sentences, we see a problem, and
part of a solution. Ken Schwaber has the Scrum Alliance working on a
possible “Certified Scrum Developer” program."

Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?

I was told that Scrum could be used to any creative endeavor.  I was told
that Scrum is a box: no technical skills directly required. A box in which
you could inject technical skills - as XP. I was told that Scrum could be
used to any creative endeavor.

If so, it doesn't make sense to me to look for Scrum Developers, but
probably they need XP Developers to succeed their "Scrum"  projects.

Ciao

Francesco

--

-- 
Dott. Francesco Cirillo
CEO XPLabs SRL - metodiagili.it
http://www.xplabs.com

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Ron Jeffries | 1 Oct 02:58 2009
Picon

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

Hello, Francesco.  On Wednesday, September 30, 2009, at 8:30:37
PM, you wrote:

> Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?

> I was told that Scrum could be used to any creative endeavor.  I was told
> that Scrum is a box: no technical skills directly required. A box in which
> you could inject technical skills - as XP. I was told that Scrum could be
> used to any creative endeavor.

> If so, it doesn't make sense to me to look for Scrum Developers, but
> probably they need XP Developers to succeed their "Scrum"  projects.

They should. But they seem to want to have it all in their own
little world.

And, as we've discussed on the skills list, there's more than just
XP to worry about.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually
try something out. -- Bruce Eckel

JackM | 1 Oct 03:05 2009

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

Personally I don't know many Scrum teams that aren't doing parts of XP as well. It's a match made in heaven.

Jack
twitter.com/agilebuddy
blog.agilebuddy.com

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Hello, Francesco.  On Wednesday, September 30, 2009, at 8:30:37
> PM, you wrote:
> 
> > Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?
> 
> > I was told that Scrum could be used to any creative endeavor.  I was told
> > that Scrum is a box: no technical skills directly required. A box in which
> > you could inject technical skills - as XP. I was told that Scrum could be
> > used to any creative endeavor.
> 
> > If so, it doesn't make sense to me to look for Scrum Developers, but
> > probably they need XP Developers to succeed their "Scrum"  projects.
> 
> They should. But they seem to want to have it all in their own
> little world.
> 
> And, as we've discussed on the skills list, there's more than just
> XP to worry about.
> 
> Ron Jeffries
> www.XProgramming.com
> www.xprogramming.com/blog
(Continue reading)

Kripanidhi | 1 Oct 03:51 2009

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers


Well Said.  +1

Kripanidhi
http://scrumtales.blogspot.com
http://www.binaryessentials.com 

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, Francesco Cirillo <francesco.cirillo <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Hi Ron,
> 
> Just read this post of yours:
> 
> "Ken Schwaber, co-creator of Scrum, says publicly that perhaps only 25% of
> Scrum teams get the full benefit of Scrum. Jeff Sutherland, the other
> co-creator, says publicly that all the high-performance Scrum teams he has
> seen used XP-style practices.In those two sentences, we see a problem, and
> part of a solution. Ken Schwaber has the Scrum Alliance working on a
> possible "Certified Scrum Developer" program."
> 
> Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?
> 
> I was told that Scrum could be used to any creative endeavor.  I was told
> that Scrum is a box: no technical skills directly required. A box in which
> you could inject technical skills - as XP. I was told that Scrum could be
> used to any creative endeavor.
> 
> If so, it doesn't make sense to me to look for Scrum Developers, but
> probably they need XP Developers to succeed their "Scrum"  projects.
> 
(Continue reading)

Laurent Bossavit | 1 Oct 08:21 2009

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

Hi Ron,
> They should. But they seem to want to have it all in their own
> little world.
>
That didn't even begin to make sense. I would recommend not feeding  
the troll, even when the troll is a respected member of the community.  
No amount of "us vs them" discussion is going to make the software  
industry an inch more productive, sustainable or humane.

Cheers,
Laurent Bossavit
laurent <at> bossavit.com

Adam Sroka | 1 Oct 08:46 2009
Picon

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 11:21 PM, Laurent Bossavit <laurent <at> bossavit.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Ron,
>
> > They should. But they seem to want to have it all in their own
> > little world.
> >
> That didn't even begin to make sense. I would recommend not feeding
> the troll, even when the troll is a respected member of the community.
> No amount of "us vs them" discussion is going to make the software
> industry an inch more productive, sustainable or humane.
>

On the contrary, the intent is quite clear. They want to own it, they
want to put their name on it, and they want the rest of us to pay for
the privilege of having them put their name on it.

Some of us are still just doing what we've been doing all along and
don't need to be branded (Pun intended.)

So, how is it not "us vs. them?" When someone tells you they own
something that's yours and you should pay them for it how is that not
worth fighting? XP belongs to the community, not to Scrum.org (by any
name.) If we don't fight to keep it then we deserve to lose it.

Adam Sroka | 1 Oct 09:09 2009
Picon

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 5:30 PM, Francesco Cirillo
<francesco.cirillo <at> xplabs.com> wrote:
> Hi Ron,
>
> Just read this post of yours:
>
> "Ken Schwaber, co-creator of Scrum, says publicly that perhaps only 25% of
> Scrum teams get the full benefit of Scrum. Jeff Sutherland, the other
> co-creator, says publicly that all the high-performance Scrum teams he has
> seen used XP-style practices.In those two sentences, we see a problem, and
> part of a solution. Ken Schwaber has the Scrum Alliance working on a
> possible “Certified Scrum Developer” program."
>
> Shouldn't they just look for XP Developers?
>
> I was told that Scrum could be used to any creative endeavor.  I was told
> that Scrum is a box: no technical skills directly required. A box in which
> you could inject technical skills - as XP. I was told that Scrum could be
> used to any creative endeavor.
>
> If so, it doesn't make sense to me to look for Scrum Developers, but
> probably they need XP Developers to succeed their "Scrum"  projects.
>

Your confusion is understandable. There is no such thing as a "Scrum
Developer." It is a brand new invention that has been pulled out of
thin air and now that its existence has been decreed the whole
community is scrambling to define it.

There is no such thing as a "Scrum Developer" because Scrum has (until
(Continue reading)

D. André Dhondt | 1 Oct 09:33 2009
Picon

Re: XP Developers versus Scrum Developers

>So, how is it not "us vs. them?"

If we want to win--that is, to keep "doing what we've been doing all along",
we need to be on the same team.  The sheer financial might of Scrum.org +
Microsoft is not something a few volunteers can stop, and at this point I
don't hear many big names saying they're going to put some skin in on this.
We need to find ways to steer and improve the programs Scrum.org is
proposing.  That may mean we make an umbrella program, that may mean that we
make a competing assessment scheme, that may mean that Scrum.org listens to
us and incorporates our tweaks.  In any case, the more it's "us", the more
likely we are to provide something useful to the community.

--

-- 
D. André Dhondt
mobile: 001 33 671 034 984
http://dhondtsayitsagile.blogspot.com/

Support low-cost conferences -- http://agiletour.org/
If you're in the area, join Agile Philly http://www.AgilePhilly.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ilja Preuß | 1 Oct 09:42 2009

Re: Re: tool for burn-down chart

Jack, Dave,

I would go even further, and say that a flip chart is much more
effective for burn charts.

- it's much more visible - done well it really is an information
radiator (software tools are often more of information refrigerators)
- it's much more flexible - want to depict some additional
information, just add it
- it's intuitive to use - everyone can contribute, without having to
read a manual
- hand drawn charts have a more "warm feel" and actually get more
attention than digital charts
- regularly spending a couple of minutes updating it
-- communicates clearly that it has value
-- makes you reflect about what that value is
-- makes you think about the depicted data in different ways than just
looking at an automatically created chart

Personally, I would fight for my flip charts! :)

Cheers, Ilja

2009/9/30 Dave Rooney <dave.rooney <at> mayford.ca>:
> Jack, with all due respect, you're advertising.
>
> VersionOne, ScrumWorks, XPlanner, ProjectCards, GreenHopper and likely many
> more do the same thing.  I've created my own in Excel in a few minutes.
>
> Steven, I've found that unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise,
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Ilja Preuß | 1 Oct 09:43 2009

Re: Re: tool for burn-down chart

Take a look at http://radio.javaranch.com/ilja/2009/07/13/1247483707968.html
for advice on how to choose your tool(s).

Cheers, Ilja

2009/9/30 Steven Woody <narkewoody <at> gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Oct 1, 2009 at 1:13 AM, Dave Rooney <dave.rooney <at> mayford.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Jack, with all due respect, you're advertising.
>>
>> VersionOne, ScrumWorks, XPlanner, ProjectCards, GreenHopper and likely many
>> more do the same thing. I've created my own in Excel in a few minutes.
>>
>> Steven, I've found that unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise,
>> the low-tech approach of whiteboard or paper is just as effective a
>> communications tool as anything automated and takes much less time to set up
>> and maintain. After all, the Burndown Chart is just that - a communication
>> tool. It's something that the team (including the Customer) uses to discuss
>> the current state of a product/project/release.
>>
>> Of course, this is only my experience, and your mileage may vary.
>>
>
> Dave, many thanks for these information.  After have a look at some of
> these tools on their web pages, I think now my interesting extend not
> only to include burn-down chart also include many other XP tools.  I
> just found I can not quickly decide which tool I should pick up.  At
> first, I think I like to use a open source one, that may be XPlanner.
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Gmane