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J. B. Rainsberger | 1 Sep 2007 01:08
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Re: Coding Standards

Phlip wrote:

> J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
> 
>  > I'm with you, although I got used to 2-space indents in Ruby in only a
>  > month or so.
> 
> Doesn't that derive directly from 2-space indents in HTML, which is
> naturally arrow-shaped?

Not for me. I tend to use 4-space indents for HTML.

> (And note that Ruby makes translating topical breaks into new methods
> trivially easy.)

Indeed so.
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William Pietri | 1 Sep 2007 02:16
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Re: Coding Standards

J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
> Not for me. I tend to use 4-space indents for HTML.
>   

I encourage folks to try zero-space indents for HTML. I used to indent 
my HTML because, well, that seemed like the thing to do. But then a 
friend, who is an ascended master as far as HTML goes, told me he didn't 
indent at all, and just uses some newline-based grouping.

I thought he was crazy, but I gave it a try. Eventually I decided I 
liked that a lot, because

a) it's not a programming language,
b) my editor shows me tag balance better than indenting would, and
c) when I'm dealing with templates, there's no worrying about indent 
collision

As a bonus, it's faster to transmit, too.

This approach is probably not for everybody, but I don't miss HTML 
indents at all.

William

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George Dinwiddie | 1 Sep 2007 02:23
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Re: Re: Collective Code Ownership

J. B. Rainsberger wrote:
> Steven Gordon wrote:
> 
>> In order to make diffs meaningful, pick a format for storing in version
>> control and have the IDE convert to that format before check in.
> 
> That's fine. I suppose if we never forget to do that, I have no 
> objection, except that it seems unnecessarily risky compared to just 
> using the same settings. I suppose I'd have to try it both ways.

Actually, you can generally have the version control system do it 
automatically, if it's a problem.  I prefer voluntary, human-decided 
format, myself.  Sometimes there are good reasons for diverging from the 
standard.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by 
little statesmen and philosophers and divines." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  - George

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Phlip | 1 Sep 2007 02:53
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Re: Coding Standards

William Pietri wrote:

> This approach is probably not for everybody, but I don't miss HTML
> indents at all.

HTML indents are a pain to maintain. I always process fresh HTML with this:

  tidy -i -asxhtml -m foo.html

That also solves the nasty problem of hand-made HTML that's ill-formed and 
not ready for assert_xpath. The indentation should come out beautiful, 
too...

Then you fill the HTML up with <%%> template nonsense, and tidy can no 
longer maintain its indentation, or well-formity.

Jeeze good free help is hard to find! (-;

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Corey Haines | 1 Sep 2007 02:59
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Re: Re: Collective Code Ownership

I do agree with the whitespace. I do find, though, that adding whitespace to
someone's otherwise whitespace-less code can sometimes lead to a beginning
understanding of the code; figuring out where the appropriate place for the
whitespace is can lead to an understanding of the division.

-Corey

On 8/31/07, Dave Rooney <dave.rooney <at> mayford.ca> wrote:
>
>   Corey Haines wrote:
> > Not to be rude, but I usually laugh when I hear someone say something
> like
> > "I and others can only abide one style of bracketing." It is only the
> format
> > of code; you can definitely get used to it.
>
> Bracketing doesn't bother me in the least... same line, next line,
> whatever.
>
> However, I personally have a great deal of difficulty reading code that
> has very little whitespace. To me, it's visual noise when the code is
> crammed all together. I know several others like myself who feel the
> same way. I also know an equal number of people who eschew whitespace
> and want to be able to see as much code on the screen as possible.
>
> Who is right? I believe the answer is "both and neither", since visual
> perception of the code isn't something that's learned but rather how our
> brains are wired. I've seen extremes on either end of the spectrum of
> no and too much whitespace, and personally like something in the middle.
>
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Corey Haines | 1 Sep 2007 03:11
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Re: Coding style (Re: Re: Collective Code Ownership)

Sure, Ron! Let me pull some out of our code next week, and I'll post some.

-corey

On 8/30/07, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> xprogramming.com> wrote:
>
>   Hello, Corey. On Thursday, August 30, 2007, at 11:06:50 PM, you
> wrote:
>
> > I'll agree with J.B. about the quaintness of loops. I primarily deal in
> C#,
> > and we haven't actually written a loop in about 6-7 months. We have a
> class
> > that looks like
>
> > CustomEnumerations
>
> > .ForEach<T>(IEnumerable<T> list, Action<T> action, params Predicate<T>
> > whereClauses)
> > .Select<T>(IEnumerable<T> list, params Predicate<T> whereClauses) :
> > IEnumerable<T>
> > .Convert<From,To>(IEnumerable<From> list, Converter<From,To> converter,
> > params Predicate<T> whereClauses)
> > .Count...
> > .Exists...
> > .SelectFirst...
> > etc.
>
> Looks nice. Show us, please, some examples of use?
>
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julescov | 1 Sep 2007 10:04
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Re: XP Programming and Scrum For One Man Company

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, William Pietri
<william <at> ...> wrote:
>
> Heh. CafePress doesn't seem to allow customized cats. Yet, anyhow. 

No, you need to print out captions and glue them. <http://xkcd.com/262/>

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julescov | 1 Sep 2007 10:06
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Re: Coding Standards

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, Tim Ottinger
<linux_tim <at> ...> wrote:
>
> BTW: My biggest peeve (after meaningful names, one-effect per line,
dropping gratuitous vertical whitespace, and obviating comments) is
that the indent is perceptible.  One-space and two-space indents make
me very uncomfortable.  I suspect they're to make deep indenting more
palatable, a goal I loathe.  I like to see three or four space
indents.   I've considered moving all my code to five or six spaces,
so that indenting more than one or two levels becomes nearly
intolerable.  :-)

The first piece of "somebody else's code" I ever had to maintain was a
C program that was formatted with one space per indent, no vertical
whitespace, and was (IIRC) about 1,000 lines long with only 2 or 3
functions.

That was an experience.

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William Pietri | 1 Sep 2007 17:36
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Telepresence with XP teams?


Has anybody done much with telepresence and XP teams? Like others, I've 
struggled for years with clients who want options other than having 
everybody in one room. I've been hearing rumblings about telepresence 
for a while, but Bob Cringely is the first writer I trust who thinks 
they live up to a lot of the hype:

    http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2007/pulpit_20070831_002850.html

Naturally, spending $350k plus $18k monthly per room is not an option 
for most of us. But I'm wondering:

a) Has anybody had a chance to use this tech in a software development 
context?

b) Have people tried cheaper always-on screens in their team rooms to 
connect remote people?

It seems to me that one of the big problems with remote participants and 
XP is that one has to consciously act to pull them in to a 
conversation.  I'm wondering if even a cheap telepresence rig would help 
chip away at that.

Curiously,

William

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Phlip | 1 Sep 2007 17:43
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Re: Telepresence with XP teams?

William Pietri wrote:

> It seems to me that one of the big problems with remote participants and 
> XP is that one has to consciously act to pull them in to a 
> conversation.  I'm wondering if even a cheap telepresence rig would help 
> chip away at that.

I don't know about your pipes, but on ours VNC is too freakin' slow.

Can I hold out for a holograph of a real pair sitting next to me?

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Gmane