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Brad Appleton | 1 Nov 2006 01:02
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Re: System Design in XP... what are your results?

I like what Feature-Driven Development (FDD) does here ... FDD 
explicitly maintains a domain (object) model. That model is created in a 
very collaborative fashion (not just pairing, team-wide).

As written, FDD employs a "chief" architect, and "chief programmers" 
from each feature-team. This implies a multi-team model with an almost 
"technical scrum of scrums" for the domain-model. However I dont see why 
a similar type of collaborative lightweight domain-modeling approach 
couldnt also be used for a single small team.

I think Scott Ambler's "Agile Modeling" sort of does this, but perhaps a 
bit less formal than FDD. I think it's possible to reach a happy medium 
between the two, without the model becoming too detailed or too much 
BDUF (but it sure would be easy/tempting to fall into traps along either 
of those issues)

--

-- 
Brad Appleton <brad {AT} bradapp.net>
   Agile CM Environments (http://blog.bradapp.net/)
   & Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
"And miles to go before I sleep" -- Robert Frost

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Carfield Yim | 1 Nov 2006 04:23
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

For me the
simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
it you will never have time to pick it up again.

On 10/31/06, Victor <vmgoldberg <at> verizon.net> wrote:
>
> Ron Jeffries tag line says:
>
> > I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
> will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
> I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
> Why pay now when we can pay later?
>
> Somebody could argue:
> Why make the tests run now?
> Why refactor now?
>
> So, without context the above line is confusing. Why use it now?
>
> Victor
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Clarke, June | 1 Nov 2006 05:35
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[ANN:] eXtreme Programming San Diego Meeting - Thursday Nov. 2nd

This month at eXtreme Programming San Diego (XPSD), we will be hosting a
discussion with a panel of local Agile experts. The panel members come to XP
from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and will offer different
perspectives on frequently asked, as well as controversial questions.

The meeting will be held at SAIC on Campus Point Dr. (
http://xpsd.org/SAICDirections ) from 6-7:30 PM on Thursday, November 2nd.
Please RSVP to joonspoon <at> joonspoon.com if you wish to attend. If you are not
a U.S. citizen, bring your passport with you to the meeting.

The purpose of the panel discussion is to allow the audience to learn about
XP, see that it is a dynamic, adaptable process and ask the experts to
clarify any nagging questions they might have. June Clarke will moderate the
discussion which will range from the positive to negative aspects of eXtreme
Programming. Strategies for avoiding common pitfalls will be discussed and
frequent criticisms of XP will be aired. After that, we will open the
discussion to the floor so be sure to bring your questions so that you may
draw on the knowledge of our expert panel introduced below:-

Dave Churchville has 15 years of experience in software development and
management ranging from Fortune 500 companies to tiny startups. He has
worked with agile methods for the last 6 years, and is currently the founder
of ExtremePlanner Software, which develops tools for Agile software
development teams.

David Drake is currently a Program Manager in the C2 Enterprise Services
Division working in the area of Network Infrastructures and Modeling and
Simulation development at SAIC. His current duties involve the management of
the Architecture and Security Teams for the $130M COMPASS project, which is
using a variant of Extreme Programming in its development.
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Ron Jeffries | 1 Nov 2006 06:25
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

Hello, Carfield.  On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
wrote:

> For me the
> simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
> you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
> it you will never have time to pick it up again.

So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
New and stirring things are belittled because if they are not belittled,
the humiliating question arises, "Why then are you not taking part in
them?"   -- H. G. Wells

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Carfield Yim | 1 Nov 2006 09:40
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

> Hello, Carfield.  On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
>  wrote:
>
>  > For me the
>  > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
>  > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
>  > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
>
>  So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
>  thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
>
In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?

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Ron Jeffries | 1 Nov 2006 12:23
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

Hello, Carfield.  On Wednesday, November 1, 2006, at 3:40:17 AM,
you wrote:

>> Hello, Carfield.  On Tuesday, October 31, 2006, at 10:23:58 PM, you
>>  wrote:
>>
>>  > For me the
>>  > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
>>  > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
>>  > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
>>
>>  So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
>>  thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
>>
> In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
> we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?

I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
I know we always like to say it'll be easier to do it now than it
will be to do it later. Not likely. I plan to be smarter later than
I am now, so I think it'll be just as easy later, maybe even easier.
Why pay now when we can pay later?

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Carfield Yim | 1 Nov 2006 15:28
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

>  >>  > For me the
>  >>  > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
>  >>  > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
>  >>  > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
>  >>
>  >>  So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
>  >>  thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
>  >>
>  > In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
>  > we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
>
>  I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
>  your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...
>

In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what
I understand the question is "If there we can refactoring or unit test
later, why we do this now? May be put more effort to make my code
work" . In my working environment, some of my coworker actually doing
that, however, the result is they haven't write single unit test
before they change their job.

So what my immediate feedback of the question is, if you don't put
these task is an important priority and do this first, then you will
never have time to do that, once you finish the current task and like
to move on to write unit test, the other task will come and the code
missing unit test accumulate and you will not bother to touch that
eventaully.

May be I try to abstract the above but present it in an incorrect
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Victor | 1 Nov 2006 15:41
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

>    Anyway I need to practice more about English writing

I support that.  Don't be deterred by the difficulties.  Just keep communicating.

Victor

===============================================

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carfield Yim 
  To: extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 9:28 AM
  Subject: Re: [XP] Why pay now when we can pay later?

  > >> > For me the
  > >> > simplest reason is you probably forget if you don't do now, because
  > >> > you will only have time to do the most important thing. Once you delay
  > >> > it you will never have time to pick it up again.
  > >>
  > >> So we should do an unimportant thing, rather than an important
  > >> thing, because we might forget to do the unimportant one?
  > >>
  > > In fact what I mean is we should do the most important thing otherwise
  > > we will forget, am my English is too bad to present this?
  >
  > I'm not sure what the cause is, but I'm really not understanding
  > your point vis-a-vis my signature line that Victor quoted ...
  >

  In fact may be I understand the question wrong at the beginning, what
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mbrown | 1 Nov 2006 20:33

X Marks the Test Case

   Better Software magazine's Feature Article
   By: Robert Sabourin
   Mind maps are a way to explore and document ideas and their
   relationships in a simple diagram. Important concepts are recorded as
   words or pictures and connected with lines indicating their
   relationships. While in college, Tony Buzan developed mind maps to save
   time in creating and reviewing notes (see the StickyNotes for more
   information). Later, he popularized mind maps through lectures, books,
   and courses. Today mind maps are used to improve memory, reading skills,
   note taking, creativity, performance, and brainstorming.

   Read More: http://www.stickyminds.com/BetterSoftware/magazine.asp

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geoffrey_slinker | 2 Nov 2006 02:13
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Re: Why pay now when we can pay later?

--- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, yahoogroups <at> ... wrote:
I know that Victor understand the saying "why pay now when we can pay
later".

For those that are new or are lurking that doesn't understand this
agilism I think John describes it very well.

> 
> In the case of code, doing it now rather than later has
> defered opportunity costs (you aren't doing something else)
> and the risk of doing something with limited information.
> (You'll know more later).

There is another agilism that is relevant. YAGNI. You ain't gonna need
it. It has to do with feature creep, gold plating, etc.

Often developers will add functionality because the anticipate it will
be useful. Don't "pay" for software until it is needed.

I have fallen into the gold plating trap before. I remember when
writing some service libraries I would try to supply a method for
every conceivable set of parameters.

void UpdatePersonRecord(PersonRecord person)
void UpdatePersonRecord(string firstName, string lastName, string
recordInfo)
void UpdatePersonRecord(int personId, string recordInfo)

I thought I was being thorough. Instead I made some unnecessary
wrappers and wasted time.
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Gmane