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Larry Brunelle | 1 Dec 2004 01:10
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Re: Re: Education and habits, comfort, familiarity, projected image


aacockburn wrote:
> 
> --- In extremeprogramming <at> yahoogroups.com, Larry Brunelle 
> <brunelle <at> i...> wrote:
> 
>> But I believe very many of us still think, or like to think, that
>> we may avoid "all that sales BS".  . . .
>> 
>> "Now we gotta learn all that lying, touchy-feely sales stuff, too?"
>> And worse, "I'm TRYING to use that sales stuff, and they STILL
>> don't listen."
> 
> 
> Nice observation there, and where it leads me is:
> 
> If we learn to use that sales stuff well, we'll be more efficient and
>  more profitable and ... and the reason that we don't learn to use it
> is ...?

The reason is that (for some of us) we didn't sign up
to play that position.  Just as we didn't sign up to
be interior designers or jockeys.

And we may try to adapt, but, gee, they didn't cover
this stuff in school, so we may not know the scope
of this part of the "curriculum".  Or how to learn it.

And, "If 'sales' was what we were going to do anyway,
a) why didn't somebody tell us so up front, and
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Tony Nassar | 1 Dec 2004 01:31
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Extremists, DC


George,

Is it on for Thursday? I'm really looking forward to it, and have been reviewing Python for two weeks. 

Tony

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Dossy Shiobara | 1 Dec 2004 01:34
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Re: Back to Education (was RE: XP Survival)


On 2004.11.30, Steven Gordon <sagordon <at> asu.edu> wrote:
> [...] solutions to the specific problems we use to illustrate 
> problem solving should not be the end goal of the educational 
> process.

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

    Give a man food, he'll eat for a day.

    Teach a man to forge food stamps, he'll eat for life.

-- Dossy

--

-- 
Dossy Shiobara                       mail: dossy <at> panoptic.com 
Panoptic Computer Network             web: http://www.panoptic.com/ 
  "He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own
    folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on." (p. 70)

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Keith Ray | 1 Dec 2004 03:03
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Re: Re: XP Survival


IIRC, in one of the books that consists of papers from an XP 
conference, a member of an XP team wrote that they "wrote" [or perhaps 
more accurately "drew"] some (or a lot) of their code AND their unit 
tests in UML using some CASE tool. I'd like to see what a unit test 
looks like in UML, but they didn't print any such UML diagrams in their 
paper/book.

There used to be a "graphical" data-flow programming language called 
Pro-Graph, IIRC, where you drew lines and boxes and typed a few names 
for the functions you were drawing and linking together... it was very 
tedious and mouse-intensive. It predated UML and didn't have a textual 
equivalent, but it did create executable applications. (MacOS)

On Nov 30, 2004, at 10:45 AM, Stede Troisi wrote:

> I assume that if you are going to model an application
> to control a new spaceship even XP purists would
> consider doing some up-front design, UML and maybe
> even a little domain specific modeling?
>
--
C. Keith Ray
<http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/blog/index.html>
<http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/xpminifaq.html>
<http://homepage.mac.com/keithray/resume2.html>

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Ron Jeffries | 1 Dec 2004 03:20
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Re: Re: XP Survival


On Tuesday, November 30, 2004, at 9:03:24 PM, Keith Ray wrote:

> There used to be a "graphical" data-flow programming language called 
> Pro-Graph, IIRC, where you drew lines and boxes and typed a few names 
> for the functions you were drawing and linking together... it was very 
> tedious and mouse-intensive. It predated UML and didn't have a textual 
> equivalent, but it did create executable applications. (MacOS)

I've used a number of the graphical "languages" that have come out. They
have all had the same property: it's easy to do simple things, and when you
get beyond simple things, the difficulty of doing it graphically seems to
explode exponentially.

Text isn't great, but I think it scales more linearly in some ways. A tool
like Together seems very interesting but I've never used it enough to get a
real sense of when I'd drag a picture and when I'd just cut and paste the
class definition, or use my refactoring tool.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
The fact that we know more today, and are more capable today,
is good news about today, not bad news about yesterday.

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Ron Jeffries | 1 Dec 2004 01:15
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selling


I ran across this accidentally just now:
http://www.changethis.com/pdf/sp-3.EnlightenedSales.pdf .

If you can't download it directly, go to http://www.changethis.com/ , click
manifestos, go to page 3, and download it from there.

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
Will Turner: This is either madness or brilliance.
Captain Jack Sparrow: It's remarkable how often those two traits coincide. 

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Dominic Williams | 1 Dec 2004 09:40

Re: Education


Gary wrote:

 > In the absence of a hatchet-wielding manager, change
 > usually needs to be introduced one step at a time.
 > That means pick one XP practice, and get that
 > securely anchored before pushing on the next.

That approach may be suitable in some circumstances,
but personally I am a proponent of the opposite
approach (switching to full XP all of a sudden), when
it is possible.

XP's practices are very interdependent: doing some of
them may be difficult and/or pointless without the
balance of others.

Regards,

Dominic Williams
http://www.dominicwilliams.net

----

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Dominic Williams | 1 Dec 2004 10:18

Re: Re: Education and habits, comfort, familiarity, projected image


Larry Brunelle wrote:

 > But I believe very many of us still think, or like to
 > think, that we may avoid "all that sales BS".
 > [...]
 > Does this resonate with anybody?

Very much.

Although I personally lack them in varying degrees, I
have great respect for some of the qualities I think
are required of salespeople: social qualities
(networking, conversation, humour, tact, respect),
communication (empathy, listening, ...) So I am
interested in improving my ability in these
areas. Nevertheless, at the present time, if I needed
to sell, for example if I were to start my own company,
I would certainly seek a partner who is naturally more
talented in them.

I would like to think, however, that it would not be
necessary, in order to be successful, to resort to
sales practices that I observe to be very common and
which I despise (I think "manipulation" would be an
appropriate summary, or your own term, BS).

It would be reassuring to hear from people who can
confirm that this can work :)
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Brad Appleton | 1 Dec 2004 10:35

Re: Re: on top-posting


On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 02:13:36PM -0000, Jeff Grigg wrote:
> (Personally, I try to edit down the quotes so that there are fewer 
> lines of quoted text than additional text.

I used to do so religiously as well, and was
the author of the humorous but serious wiki page
<http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TrimYourPosts>

Also see <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0883.html> for some string
arguments about why to do this.

However, lately I do find myself top-posting on occasion. I
know managers and others at work do it all the blessed
time, and its do partly to laziness and partly to trying
to leave a pristine audit-trail in reverse-chronological
order since people often get Cc:ed only after several
messages and need the full context.

But I've started doing top-posting from time-to-time for
a different reason, and it has to do with my own personal
evolution of my communication style. I find I need to do
a better job of trying to interpret the overall message
of a post (not just the individual lines and paragraphs)
and a better job of distilling my own thoughts on the
posting as a whole.

When I try to do that, it often doesn't make sense to try and
interleave such comments in any one particular place.
(Continue reading)

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Brad Appleton | 1 Dec 2004 11:09

Re: XP Survival


On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 07:26:06AM -0800, Stede Troisi wrote:
> With the advent of Domain Specific Modeling, MDA,
> Software factories and the wonderful tools included in
> Visual Studio 2005 I was wondering if XP can or even
> needs to survive in the next 50 years?

Interesting question. I actually had a conversation about this
with David Anderson (author of "Agile Management", also see
http://www.agilemanagement.net). David is an FDD practitioner.

In my opinion, one of the most fundamental differences
between FDD and XP is what each perceives to be the 
central artifact and mechanism for conveying knowledge
of the system.
- with XP, it is the source code.
- with FDD, it is the domain model

Another interesting thing about FDD is several of its
"color modeling" rules/patterns are really just refactoring
rules being applied to the model rather than to code
(IMHO).

I believe that MDA/MDD wants not just the central
mechanism for communicating system organization and
design to be the model, but the ultimate goal is that the
model will be the ONLY means necessary to do it.

I do believe MDA/MDD, in conjunction with IDEs like
Eclipse, will indeed reshape the face of software
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Gmane