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Ron Jeffries | 1 Mar 2004 01:39
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Re: Big Visible Charts

On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 3:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

>> On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 12:51:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
>>> There is one thing that I hope you'll talk more about in future 
>>> iterations, though. Suppose I've decided to have a BVC that tracks
>>> the number of Acceptance Tests passing and number of Acceptance
>>> Tests running over time. The "Casual is Better" paragraph gave me
>>> the impression that it's inherently better for me to manually
>>> update that BVC than it would be for me to automatically print a
>>> new one every day. I don't think that it *would* be inherently
>>> better - but before I'd argue the point, I'd like to see if that
>>> *is* in fact your point.
>> That is my point.

> Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually update my 
> BVC than to automatically print a new one every day. Just wanted to make 
> sure.

Well, no. If I had noticed and thought about "inherently" I might have
hedged. But not very much.

I think it is a very good assumption that beginning with manual charts and
updating them manually is the better way. Surely there are exceptions ...

>> ...
> Well, I'm not going to do this *exact* experiment, for a couple of 
> reasons. First off, I don't have any graph paper on hand, so Tmark would 
> have to include the time required for a run to Staples. Not exactly 
> representative, I'd say. Secondly, if I'm reading your suggestion 
> correctly, the output of both the manual and automated processes would
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John Carter | 1 Mar 2004 01:56
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Rationale behind one step build process.

I have just realized that a major source of conflict between myself and
another developer on the team is the following.

I think having a one step build process is very important, and he thinks
having versioned libraries are important.

I believe you should be able to build the entire product directly from the
source code in one step, ensuring no breakage. (Bitrot)

He believes that each subteam should deliver "tested, closed, sealed and
signed, versioned binary libraries" to the rest of the team.

I believe that when you check into CVS mainline you are versioning,
signing and sealing that you have compiled, tested and it works.

I believe the only thing binary libraries gives you these days is a
screwed up dependency tree at "make" time and maybe a second or two at
link time.

Does anyone have any opinions, pointers to "Best Practice" literature /
web sites to support either view.

John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
PO Box 1645 Christchurch                Email : john.carter <at> tait.co.nz
New Zealand

Note to all marketers. If you want to sell things to me, buy Google words.

I refuse on principle to buy anything sold by spam or popup and I
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William Wake | 1 Mar 2004 02:07
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Re: Big Visible Charts

>From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> XProgramming.com>
>On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 3:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
> > Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually update my
> > BVC than to automatically print a new one every day. Just wanted to make
> > sure.
>
>Well, no. If I had noticed and thought about "inherently" I might have
>hedged. But not very much.

I don't know if the case is a lock, but there are things the hand-drawn ones 
have going for them that might make them inherently better:
* They acquire hand-written annotations that would be tedious to move 
forward
* There's an equal-participation aspect to having a chart anyone can write 
on
* The hand-drawn nature reinforces their ephemerality - they're for the team 
now. (I don't want a misguided manager thinking they should get a monthly 
report on the # of integrations.)
* Hand-drawn charts are unique; I think they draw more attention than 
computer-printed charts.
* You can learn things by seeing which charts DO get updated; the automatic 
approach might hide some of this.

>I think it is a very good assumption that beginning with manual charts and
>updating them manually is the better way. Surely there are exceptions ...
Right...
--
   Bill Wake   William.Wake <at> acm.org   www.xp123.com

_________________________________________________________________
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Edmund Schweppe | 1 Mar 2004 02:20
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Re: Rationale behind one step build process.

John Carter wrote:
> I have just realized that a major source of conflict between myself
> and another developer on the team is the following.
> 
> I think having a one step build process is very important, and he
> thinks having versioned libraries are important.

Is there a particularly good reason why your team should not have *both* 
versioned libraries *and* a one-step build process?

-- 
Edmund Schweppe -- schweppe <at> ieee.org -- http://schweppe.home.tiac.net
The opinions expressed herein are at best coincidentally related to
those of any past, present or future employer.

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Edmund Schweppe | 1 Mar 2004 02:32
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Re: Big Visible Charts

William Wake wrote:

> From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries <at> XProgramming.com
>> On Sunday,February 29, 2004, at 3:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:
>>> Okay. Your point is that it *is* inherently better to manually
>>> update my BVC than to automatically print a new one every day.
>>> Just wanted to make sure.
>> Well, no. If I had noticed and thought about "inherently" I might
>> have hedged. But not very much.
> I don't know if the case is a lock, but there are things the
> hand-drawn ones have going for them that might make them inherently
> better:

I'm not sure it's a lock either - in fact, I doubt that handbuilt is 
*always* better. However, these are the sorts of things I was looking 
for as food for thought:

> * They acquire hand-written annotations that would be tedious to move
> forward
> * There's an equal-participation aspect to having a chart anyone can
> write on
> * The hand-drawn nature reinforces their ephemerality - they're for
> the team now. (I don't want a misguided manager thinking they should
> get a monthly report on the # of integrations.)
> * Hand-drawn charts are unique; I think they draw more attention than
> computer-printed charts.
> * You can learn things by seeing which charts DO get updated; the
> automatic approach might hide some of this.

Interesting - the feeling I got from Ron's page was that *one* person
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Ron Jeffries | 1 Mar 2004 02:36
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Re: Big Visible Charts

On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 8:32:34 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

> Interesting - the feeling I got from Ron's page was that *one* person 
> would take ownership of making these handdrawn BVCs, while it sounds to 
> me as though you're envisioning the Whole Team drawing them.

We're both right. Someone has to take the lead, but the team should own the
chart. Another reason not to build them with a program, by the way ...

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com

In times of stress, I like to turn to the wisdom of my Portuguese waitress,
who said: "Olá, meu nome é Marisol e eu serei sua garçonete."
  -- after Mark Vaughn, Autoweek.

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Ron Jeffries | 1 Mar 2004 02:46
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Re: Re: Offshoring XP

On Saturday, February 28, 2004, at 9:14:33 PM, kentlbeck wrote:

> For my response to offshoring I return to the principles of XP, the 
> most pertinent of which appears to be the principle of mutual 
> benefit. What is a response to offshoring that improves life for 
> high-cost programmers, low-cost programmers, and customers? If we 
> can improve the value created by software development enough, we can 
> increase the size of the software development market enough to more 
> than offset the "loss" of jobs.

Yes, this certainly makes sense. I confess to having a personal bias
against having all my programming buddies looking for jobs in this
country, while low-cost programmers in Elbonia are getting work.

That's not a statement about XP, it's a statement about me.

> So, the way I am responding to the combination of wage differential 
> and high-bandwidth communication that has lead to offshoring is to 
> further increase the value of software development, single- and 
> multi-site. To answer your questions, XP is committed to improving 
> the value of all software development, single and multi-site. XP 
> does not have obstruction as a goal.

Nothing else could make sense, in my opinion. It is my own personal plan,
however, not to direct my attention to improving the value of off-shore
development if I can help it. Again, a personal plan, not an XP position. I
probably wouldn't help a tobacco company or a drug lord write software
either. I hope.

> That said, my personal reaction to offshoring is often one of fear.
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Doug Swartz | 1 Mar 2004 02:49
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Re[2]: Big Visible Charts


Sunday, February 29, 2004, 2:18:08 PM, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

> On the other hand, I'm not ready to buy a claim that it's *inherently*
> better to do one's BVCs manually - because I can see some definite value 
> in generating them automatically under certain circumstances.

> Maybe you could say some more about why it's *inherently* better to do 
> them manually...

Well....

We have one project manager who, from my perspective, is quite
1n1l retentive. We managed to inherit one of those big
DesignJet printers from a failed Internet start-up that the
corporation bought. This project manager has gotten in the
habit of periodically printing some of the BVCs for the
project she's on. They look gorgeous!

And... I hate them! To me, they're sterile, and much less
believable than the hand-written ones, with new scribbles
layered on each day to show progress. Maybe it's just me, but
the hand-written ones made with different color markers, with
multiple people's handwriting, with the big "CODED" written on
top of the card name by the programmers, with "DONE" layered
on top of that when the customer and tester agree, have much
more visceral impact when I walk in the room. They show works
in progress, while the fancy printed ones just look like
advertisements to me. It's probably the cynic in me, but I 
don't trust advertisements.
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John Carter | 1 Mar 2004 02:56
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Re: Rationale behind one step build process.

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Edmund Schweppe wrote:

> Is there a particularly good reason why your team should not have *both*
> versioned libraries *and* a one-step build process?

Well, in my opinion the having "blest" binaries gives you nothing but
complexity.

Version the source and the versioning the binaries comes for free. Pull
the "libraries" source into seperate CVS modules that allows them to
evolve at different rates, and who cares if you pack the .object files
into a "lib" file or not?

In fact, the only thing you have is the "make" dependency tracking from
source file to executable via lib file is usually broken in most build
systems I have seen. ie. How many times have you seen someone pulling
their hair out, "we made the change in the source, but it is not in the
executable!"? (They forgot to rebuild the library)

In my view is "library" or not is an artifact of the CVS module structure
and source level interfaces, and has nothing to do with the build system.

In his view, the build system should package things into libBlah.a's and
refer to libBlah.a's.

As far as I can see, the _only_ advantage is slightly (very
slightly) faster linking times.

John Carter                             Phone : (64)(3) 358 6639
Tait Electronics                        Fax   : (64)(3) 359 4632
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Ron Jeffries | 1 Mar 2004 02:56
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Re: Big Visible Charts

On Sunday, February 29, 2004, at 8:49:49 PM, Doug Swartz wrote:

> And... I hate them! To me, they're sterile, and much less
> believable than the hand-written ones, with new scribbles
> layered on each day to show progress. Maybe it's just me, but
> the hand-written ones made with different color markers, with
> multiple people's handwriting, with the big "CODED" written on
> top of the card name by the programmers, with "DONE" layered
> on top of that when the customer and tester agree, have much
> more visceral impact when I walk in the room. They show works
> in progress, while the fancy printed ones just look like
> advertisements to me. It's probably the cynic in me, but I 
> don't trust advertisements.

> Therefore, for me, it's somehow *inherently* better to do
> them manually.

Here's a great big kiss for you, Doug!  <font size="44">X</font>

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
The fact that we know more today, and are more capable today,
is good news about today, not bad news about yesterday.

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