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Stan Vass | 1 Nov 2010 10:18

Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts are 
simple:

1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as they as 
for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks unlikely 
to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something recignizable to 
start with
3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the 
creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in the 
community after repeatedly causing support issues.

T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump to it 
won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a nerd 
gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and obviously 
positive changes PHP can implement.

Stan Vass 

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Dennis Haarbrink | 1 Nov 2010 10:58
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: Stan Vass [mailto:sv_forums <at> fmethod.com]
> Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19
> Aan: internals <at> lists.php.net
> Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to 
> T_DOUBLE_COLON
> Urgentie: Laag
> 
> It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts 
> are
> simple:
> 
> 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as 
> they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
> 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks 
> unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something 
> recignizable to start with
> 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
> 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the 
> creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in 
> the community after repeatedly causing support issues.
> 
> T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump 
> to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a 
> nerd gridlock bound to argue forever about even the most minor and 
> obviously positive changes PHP can implement.
> 
> Stan Vass
> 
>
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Arvids Godjuks | 1 Nov 2010 11:12
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

Agreed, and really - my experience is that googling non-standard error
message usually give instant result. Googling for a common error
message could become a big time investment pointing to different
software even if you point to search engine for what software to look.

2010/11/1 Dennis Haarbrink <Dennis <at> born05.nl>:
>> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
>> Van: Stan Vass [mailto:sv_forums <at> fmethod.com]
>> Verzonden: maandag 1 november 2010 10:19
>> Aan: internals <at> lists.php.net
>> Onderwerp: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to
>> T_DOUBLE_COLON
>> Urgentie: Laag
>>
>> It's amazing to me this has become such a long discussion. The facts
>> are
>> simple:
>>
>> 1) People don't ask for the other parse errors even half as often as
>> they as for T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
>> 2) They do so because it looks like gibberish to them, so it looks
>> unlikely to be a common thing you can Google, nor it gives something
>> recignizable to start with
>> 3) Yes, to all who are not sure, more people know English than Hebrew.
>> 4) Yes, we all acknowledge it's an easter egg joke that refers to the
>> creators of PHP. But that particular joke has outworn its welcome in
>> the community after repeatedly causing support issues.
>>
>> T_DOUBLE_COLON already exists as a constant in userland, so the jump
>> to it won't be an epic change. Let's do it as a proof that we're not a
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Richard Quadling | 1 Nov 2010 11:22
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Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

On 30 October 2010 01:47, admin <admin <at> codeangel.org> wrote:
> WTF is T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM?
>
> This has to be THE most asked question by new php developers when they come
> across it.  Can we please change the token name to T_DOUBLE_COLON so I don't
> have to hear about it constantly?
>
> Those that disagree don't do enough PHP support to know how often it is
> asked. it's worth it.
>
> Chad

Maybe, considering the easter egg nature of this token, one of the
following URLs should be included in the message ...

tinyurl.com/c8d7ek, tinyurl.com/25865ya or tinyurl.com/nlx98u.

Maybe just drop the tinyurl.com part - let's give those that can't
really something to complain about!

-- 
Richard Quadling
Twitter : EE : Zend
 <at> RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY

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Alexander Schrijver | 1 Nov 2010 12:06
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 10:58:36AM +0100, Dennis Haarbrink wrote:
> Come on people, what exactly is the problem with a once-in-a-lifetime investment of 5 seconds of your time
to google some stupid error message. Something you, as a developer, spend your life doing.
> 
> Please, stop complaining about a minor (yes, it is minor, use the fricking search engine!) annoyance and
accept php's heritage. 
> 
> And please understand, I do get where all the opponents are coming from, it is an unnecessary complicated
error message (I agree that the language argument is a moot point, in the world of internet and programming
in particular, English is the standard), but you google it once in your life and then you 'forget' about it.
And if you can't remember the meaning of something like that, I hardly doubt you'd be a decent programmer anyway.

Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
this you'r annoying thousands of people.

This isn't an easteregg either. This is a "lesson" as someone explained.
eastereggs aren't visible to normal users.

If you want teach people about Hebrew you obviously can do so. I don't see how
that is the goal of a programming language, but that is an other issue. But
don't come along and insult us with this bullshit.

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Stefan Marr | 1 Nov 2010 12:59
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON


On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> this you'r annoying thousands of people.
Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely
insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the
parser would have expected. 

Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Best regards
Stefan

-- 
Stefan Marr
Software Languages Lab
Vrije Universiteit Brussel
Pleinlaan 2 / B-1050 Brussels / Belgium
http://soft.vub.ac.be/~smarr
Phone: +32 2 629 2974
Fax:   +32 2 629 3525

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James Butler | 1 Nov 2010 13:04
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

+1 

This solves lots of other problems we have and will have in the future.

--
James Butler
Sent from my iPhone

On 1 Nov 2010, at 12:00, "Stefan Marr" <php <at> stefan-marr.de> wrote:

> 
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
>> Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
>> this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely
insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the
parser would have expected. 
> 
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...
> 
> Best regards
> Stefan
> 
> 
> -- 
> Stefan Marr
> Software Languages Lab
> Vrije Universiteit Brussel
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Alexander Schrijver | 1 Nov 2010 13:19
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
> 
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely
insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the
parser would have expected. 
> 
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you.

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James Butler | 1 Nov 2010 13:23
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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON


-----Original Message-----
From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrijver <at> gmail.com] 
Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19
To: Stefan Marr
Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals <at> lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
> 
> On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely
insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the
parser would have expected. 
> 
> Changing to lemon is the only way to actually achieve something in the long run...

Right, and be forced to introduce some bullshit hebrew when its done. No, thank you.

Err, the entire point is that it won't matter what the underlying token is. The error as seen can be anything
you want it to be, or at least you can have a fight about what the new message looks like and i'm sure there
won't really be a compelling reason for it to be in hebrew (unless localized).
Please grow up...

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Alexander Schrijver | 1 Nov 2010 13:30
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[PHP-DEV] [alexander.schrijver <at> gmail.com: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON]

Oops, should've sent this to the list too.

----- Forwarded message from Alexander Schrijver <alexander.schrijver <at> gmail.com> -----

Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:28:59 +0100
From: Alexander Schrijver <alexander.schrijver <at> gmail.com>
To: James Butler <james.butler <at> edigitalresearch.com>
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM]  Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15)

On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:23:07PM +0000, James Butler wrote:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Schrijver [mailto:alexander.schrijver <at> gmail.com] 
> Sent: 01 November 2010 12:19
> To: Stefan Marr
> Cc: Dennis Haarbrink; Stan Vass; internals <at> lists.php.net
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [SPAM] Re: [PHP-DEV] rename T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM to T_DOUBLE_COLON
> 
> On Mon, Nov 01, 2010 at 12:59:54PM +0100, Stefan Marr wrote:
> > 
> > On 01 Nov 2010, at 12:06, Alexander Schrijver wrote:
> > > Its a minor change and an annoyance to a lot of people. Yes, by not changing
> > > this you'r annoying thousands of people.
> > Instead of going for this cosmetic nonsense you should help those people on the lemon branch.
> > I am insulted every time I have to read a parser token name in an error message, instead of a sensible error message.
> > The cost of understanding T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM as part of the current mumbo-jumbo is completely
insignificant compared to the cost of actually understanding the error message just indicating what the
parser would have expected.
(Continue reading)

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