[OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Does anyone know of schools in Israel that have switched (or intend to
switch) to OpenOffice?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Micha Silver
Arava Development Co
tel:  (972) 08-6592270
fax:  (972) 03-5422508
cell:  052-3665918

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Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

I've looked into the possibility seriously and have come to the 
conclusion that it is too soon to do. The reason is that there is not a 
version of open office that has been "converted" sufficiently to be used 
by schools. I am the Computer administrator of a regional high school 
and have to have everything 100% operable in Hebrew AND English. In my 
opinion there are a few MUSTS when it comes to integrating the Open 
Office in schools.
1. The possibility of an English OR Hebrew interface while allowing 
control of the language not being used as interface (e.g. spell check).
2. All functions converted completely to Hebrew. The main one that comes 
to my mind is the spread sheet's inability to have column  "A" start on 
the right. I know this is being dealt with in version 2 but that is only 
in the beta stage.
3. There are a few "user friendly" factors that Microsoft Office 
supplies and Open Office doesn't but because the price of M. Office is 
soooooo high these are "wants" but not "MUSTS" in my opinion.

Pupils (and more so teachers) shouldn't be the testing ground for 
software. They don't have the time or knowledge to work out solutions to 
the bugs that arise. It has taken the school system a long time to make 
the computer an integral part of the teaching and learning process. The 
teachers have enough problems integrating the technology into their 
curriculum (not enough computer time, becoming familiar with the 
computer etc. etc.) that there isn't (nor should be) time devoted to 
de-buging

If Open Office is converted enough it will become a real alternative to 
M.Office. I am certainly looking forward to that day when I can 
justifiably go to my school and present Open Office as a real 
alternative. I know there will be objections (fear of something 

Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Dear Errol,

You wrote,
> I am certainly looking forward to that day when I can
> justifiably go to my school and present Open Office as a real
> alternative. I know there will be objections (fear of something
> different, a steeper learning curve, etc.)

Please explain what you mean by "a steeper learning curve." OO is different
in many ways from MS Office, but overall, I have not found it to me more
difficult.

David Grossman

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Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Hi

On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Errol & Estelle Sapir wrote:

> 2. All functions converted completely to Hebrew. The main one that comes
> to my mind is the spread sheet's inability to have column"A" start on
> the right. I know thisis being dealt with in version 2 but that is only
> in the beta stage.
> 3. There are a few "user friendly" factors that Microsoft Office
> supplies and Open Office doesn't but because the price of M. Office is
> soooooo high these are "wants" but not "MUSTS" in my opinion.

What do you mean? Could you give some examples?

BTW: the handling of styles in OOo is so much better than in MS-Office.
You can actually separate content from formatting. IMHO schol should teach
students how to write (as opposed to merely using the computer as a
glorified type-writer).

This inludes proper use of paragraphs, and formatting the text through
global style definitions rather than applying the same format on each
paragraph.

(No: this was just a rant. I'm not optimistic enough to believe that this
will actually happen)

--

-- 
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:tzafrir <at> technion.ac.il
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir

Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

There are some differences in "useablity" (for want of a better word) 
that open office requires. I'll give an example from my VERY limited 
experience of Open Office. It seems to me that in order to work with 
Open Office one should set up a style first. There seems to be much less 
flexibility to stylize one's document after typing it than with M.Office.
The teacher\pupil user has become familiar with M.Office and even minor 
differences will provide them with some antagonism to change.
I won't bring up other factors which I consider bugs and I hope will be 
dealt with as such by the amazing teams of developers whose dedication 
and solution finding deserves only praise. e.g. integration of Hebrew 
and English on same line of typing is problematic, to say the least.

David Grossman wrote:
> Dear Errol,
> 
> You wrote,
> 
>>I am certainly looking forward to that day when I can
>>justifiably go to my school and present Open Office as a real
>>alternative. I know there will be objections (fear of something
>>different, a steeper learning curve, etc.)
> 
> 
> Please explain what you mean by "a steeper learning curve." OO is different
> in many ways from MS Office, but overall, I have not found it to me more
> difficult.
> 
> David Grossman
> 
> 

RE: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Hello Errol:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Errol & Estelle Sapir [mailto:errol <at> tzora.co.il] 
> Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:40 PM
> To: Micha Silver
> Cc: 'hebrew <at> openoffice.org.il'
> Subject: Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel
> 
> 
> I've looked into the possibility seriously and have come to the 

Me too.

> conclusion that it is too soon to do. The reason is that 
> there is not a 
> version of open office that has been "converted" sufficiently 
> to be used

I've come to the opposite conclusion.

> by schools. I am the Computer administrator of a regional high school 
> and have to have everything 100% operable in Hebrew AND 
> English. In my 
> opinion there are a few MUSTS when it comes to integrating the Open 
> Office in schools.
> 1. The possibility of an English OR Hebrew interface while allowing 
> control of the language not being used as interface (e.g. 
> spell check). 2. All functions converted completely to 

Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Hi Tzafrir
Is this the right forum for this debate? I'll just make a few remarks 
and the moderator can decide because we're going into Hebrew Linux here.
Linux may be ready for the Hebrew operating population but are we ready 
for Linux?
I am a pretty competent computer user and am also a network manager. My 
competence comes from the fact that I have been brought up (after 
graduating from DOS, which I loved) in an entirely graphic environment. 
Linux has only come to that way of thinking recently. I am so used to 
the graphic environment that I cannot (will not) forfeit that 
environment. I am trying to use Linux (Fedora -  a very graphical 
version) on my other computer and my mind set is Windows so to do even 
the simplest of things is a learning effort if not a struggle. I realize 
the problem is in my way of thinking but to get into the Linux "way of 
thinking" takes time (and effort) which I have precious little of. I'll 
give a few examples and then end this OT letter. Maybe we can move this 
to another forum?
1. I installed Fedora. I wanted to use OO in Hebrew. Couldn't find 
fonts, tried to find out how to install them, got info, tried again etc. 
All time consuming and the bottom line is I didn't succeed.
2. Wanted to upgrade to OO 2.0 and see it in Linux. Couldn't because I 
was used to Windows simple install command and all is done.
I'm sure given time I'll overcome these obstacles but that's because I 
WANT to learn Linux (as I said time allowing - because I have to work 
and develop in a Microsoft environment). The majority of people want to 
turn on their computer and do what they want. Linux has to provide them 
with this. It is the BEST OS around and I don't say that cynically!
Errol

Tzafrir Cohen wrote:

[OOo-H] School use in Israel

Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

Hi Micha AND Tfafrir
In order for you to understand my point of view I think I should explain 
where I am coming from.
I am the tecnician at school, not the educator. I provide solutions that 
the teachers and school require. My perspective is the wants and 
complaints of the teachers whom as I said in a previous letter have come 
a long way and are becoming more computer literate.
Their basis of comparison is going to be what they know and are familiar 
with. They don't see the computer as anything more than a tool that has 
to comply with their pedagogical wishes. They aren't interested in the 
underlying reasons for using this OS or that or this program or another. 
They have so little computer time that they want to exploit it to the 
most. Unfortunately Windows and it's programs got Hebraised first (and 
for this they deserve credit) so it is now an uphill battle to change. 
IMHO only when Linux and Open Office become user friendly IN THE EYES OF 
THE GENERAL USER not us geeks will there be a chance.
I need some basic tools to wage this battle which is correct for a 
number of reasons:
  A better OS and Office.
  Cost
  Stability and security.
The tools I need are user friendliness  - which I think if we were ONLY 
dealing in an English environment we almost have.
Maximum Hebrew compatibility (or dual language compatibility).
Errol

Micha Silver wrote:

> 
> Hello Errol:
> 
> 
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Errol & Estelle Sapir [mailto:errol <at> tzora.co.il] 
>>Sent: Friday, July 02, 2004 2:40 PM
>>To: Micha Silver
>>Cc: 'hebrew <at> openoffice.org.il'
>>Subject: Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel
>>
>>
>>I've looked into the possibility seriously and have come to the 
> 
> 
> Me too.
> 
> 
>>conclusion that it is too soon to do. The reason is that 
>>there is not a 
>>version of open office that has been "converted" sufficiently 
>>to be used
> 
> 
> I've come to the opposite conclusion.
>  
> 
>>by schools. I am the Computer administrator of a regional high school 
>>and have to have everything 100% operable in Hebrew AND 
>>English. In my 
>>opinion there are a few MUSTS when it comes to integrating the Open 
>>Office in schools.
>>1. The possibility of an English OR Hebrew interface while allowing 
>>control of the language not being used as interface (e.g. 
>>spell check). 2. All functions converted completely to 
>>Hebrew. The main one that comes 
>>to my mind is the spread sheet's inability to have column  
>>"A" start on 
>>the right. I know this is being dealt with in version 2 but 
>>that is only 
>>in the beta stage.
> 
> 
> We will install only the hebrew interface. Lack of spell checker and the
> inabillity to switch the spreadsheet's directions are, in my view, an
> annoyance, not a MUST. 
> 
> 
>>3. There are a few "user friendly" factors that Microsoft Office 
>>supplies and Open Office doesn't but because the price of M. 
>>Office is 
>>soooooo high these are "wants" but not "MUSTS" in my opinion.
>>
>>Pupils (and more so teachers) shouldn't be the testing ground for 
>>software. They don't have the time or knowledge to work out 
>>solutions to 
>>the bugs that arise. It has taken the school system a long 
>>time to make 
>>the computer an integral part of the teaching and learning 
>>process. The 
>>teachers have enough problems integrating the technology into their 
>>curriculum (not enough computer time, becoming familiar with the 
>>computer etc. etc.) that there isn't (nor should be) time devoted to 
>>de-buging
> 
> 
> I disagree. Schools are the prefect place to begin integrating open source
> software. The cost, while a heavy consideration for all of us these days, is
> not the most important in my opinion. There are too many areas of high
> school education where scholastic achievement needs to be purchased: books,
> private tutors, field trips, computers, and software. We need to find ways
> to reinforce the idea that education is offered freely to any student
> willing to reach out and try to grab it. Here, finally is an crucial tool
> which each student needs today, and can be obtained freely. This sends the
> correct message. I want to convince students, and teachers that if they make
> that extra effort, they can broaden their knowledge without buying some
> product. Education is NOT spoon feeding students with easy to use
> "user-friendly" information, but rather giving them basic tools and letting
> them investigate on their own. 
> 
> 
>>If Open Office is converted enough it will become a real 
>>alternative to 
>>M.Office. I am certainly looking forward to that day when I can 
>>justifiably go to my school and present Open Office as a real 
>>alternative. I know there will be objections (fear of something 
>>different, a steeper learning curve, etc.) but if we have the 
>>product I 
>>would gladly wage that battle.
>>
>>My final remark is based on the fact that most of us use 
>>Windows (in one 
>>version or another). I would LOVE to see the same move to 
>>Linux (which I 
>>am starting to learn) but that is another story. There the 
>>problems are 
>>MUCH more complex.
> 
> 
> Again I disagree. Linux in schools will come faster than we think. There's
> nothing more complex about it, just different. It's hard to give up what
> we've become used to. But the open source approach is educationally correct,
> and today it's feasible even in hebrew. Switching to OpenOffice on windows
> is the first big step in the right direction.
> 
> 
>>Errol
> 
> 
> Thanks for your comments
> --Micha
> 
> 
>>Micha Silver wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone know of schools in Israel that have switched 
>>
>>(or intend to
>>
>>>switch) to OpenOffice?
>>>
>>>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>Micha Silver
>>>Arava Development Co
>>>tel:  (972) 08-6592270
>>>fax:  (972) 03-5422508
>>>cell:  052-3665918
>>>
>>>==============================================================
>>>To unsubscribe, send mail to Majordomo <at> openoffice.org.il
>>>with "unsubscribe hebrew" in the message body.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [OOo-H] K12 users in Israel

On 02/07/2004, at 17:14, Errol & Estelle Sapir wrote:
> Their basis of comparison is going to be what they know and are 
> familiar with.
<snip>

>  IMHO only when Linux and Open Office become user friendly IN THE EYES 
> OF THE GENERAL USER not us geeks will there be a chance.

Do you want something user friendly or something familiar? They are NOT 
the same.

Yes, braking habits can be hard. I know it- last week I had to work 
with MSOffice, and I cussed my head off, as I am used to the way OOo 
handles things, and working with MSO felt so awkward (you try to get 
something useful done with it's style manager  *shudder*).

However, many times braking old habits does pay off. I am obviously 
biased, buy IMHO OOo is worth it for many reasons- educational, 
financial and yes, productivity.

I know work is being done in that area in the UK (see attached email). 
Hebrew makes things slightly more complex, but not that much more.

P.S.
Please everyone, SNIP your replays. It is a pain to get an email with 
the full thread tacked on to the bottom.

Begin attached message:

> From: Ian Lynch
> Date: 23:07:02 GMT+03:00 27 יוני 2004
> To: dev <at> marketing.openoffice.org
> Subject: [Marketing] From Usenet discussion of OO.o and migrating to 
> FLOSS in schools.
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:dev-unsubscribe <at> marketing.openoffice.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain
> X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.6-1mdk
>
> Quoted from Usenet discussion in uk.education.schools-it.
>
> I also posted Lex 10 dos and don't for a migration strategy that might
> be useful to others so I have appended that to the end.
>
> Subject:      Re: Linux is it the future?
> From:         Geoffrey King <gking <at> evildomain.dyndns.org>
> Newsgroups:   uk.education.schools-it
> Date:         Sun, 27 Jun 2004 13:51:55 GMT
>
> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 14:45:58 +0100, Lex wrote:
>
>> Thanks for you very useful and informative reply to my questions.
>> I was really thinking of Linux software applications in the classroom
>> in particular the Open Office applications you mention. Are schools
>> using this in preference to MS Office or as well as?
>
> Well, at the schools I work at, we've stopped buying MS Office and we
> are putting Openoffice on any new PCs. The older PC's are quite happy
> with MS Office 97.
>
>
> 10 do's and don'ts for planning a migration strategy to FLOSS.
>
>
> 1. Don't sign up to long term tie in through schemes such as MS Schools
> Agreement even if it seems to give short term savings
>
> 2. Don't upgrade proprietary operating systems unless there is a really
> good reason to do so in terms of kids learning.
>
> 3. Migrate to cross=platform applications such as OpenOffice.org on
> Windows so that the user transition is easier when it comes to moving 
> to
> Linux.
>
> 4. Don't think that you have to throw out software you have already 
> paid
> for. If you have paid for Office 97, use it but install OpenOffice.org
> alongside and encourage its use.
>
> 5. Join Schoolforge UK, Association for free Software and Suse schools
> mailing lists to keep up to date and learn more about FLOSS software.
>
> 6. Implement applications based on learning needs not technology dogma
> such as all machines need refreshing every year.
>
> 7. Set up some small scale experiments with Desktop Linux eg a 
> cybercafe
> running Linux thin clients on older hardware that was going to be 
> thrown
> out anyway. This is a low cost way of learning and being able to make
> informed decisions.
>
> 8. Get local technical support trained in FLOSS issues and look for
> support companies who have a track record of supporting both Linux and
> Windows networks in schools.
>
> 9. Involve pupils in the process. You will find some that are very keen
> to try things out and since the software is free they can without
> financial penalty. Its good for them to learn about what is happening
> beyond the statutory curriculum which is normally at least 5 years out
> of date anyway.
>
> 10. Educate all pupils (and staff) about open standards and why
> monopolies on technological standards should be avioded if at all
> possible.
>

---
Shoshannah Forbes
http://www.xslf.com

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