Discussion group about modifying the Linux operating system on the Linksys NSLU2.

Doug | 2 Jan 2011 02:59

Low power / quiet drive

I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux 
on the nslu2?  I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green 
drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws 
less power, and does not require a cooling fan.  64G would be fine but I know 
that 500G is probably a minimum now days. 

I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but 
the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember 
way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K,  1M, 10M  but just what 
is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than 
others?  I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real 
experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?

 Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

------------------------------------

headers

jon pounder | 2 Jan 2011 03:01

Re: Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

if you don't need a ton of space go with a sata to CF adapter and just 
get a compact flash stick the size you need.
it doesn't get much quieter than flash.

or just get a huge usb stick and plug it right in instead of a usb harddrive

> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2?  I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan.  64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K,  1M, 10M  but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others?  I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
>   Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>

(Continue reading)

headers

Doug | 2 Jan 2011 03:13

Re: Low power / quiet drive

OK, This is something you have done? If so how long have you run it and did you set it up for minimal writes? My concern is the reliability of the flash drives on the nslu2. The problem is that the nslu2 has minimal RAM space. Perhaps a Sheva plug or some other ARM device with more RAM might work better.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:01:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

if you don't need a ton of space go with a sata to CF adapter and just
get a compact flash stick the size you need.
it doesn't get much quieter than flash.

or just get a huge usb stick and plug it right in instead of a usb harddrive

> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2? I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan. 64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K, 1M, 10M but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others? I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
> Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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jon pounder | 2 Jan 2011 03:16

Re: Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 09:13 PM, Doug wrote:

OK, This is something you have done? If so how long have you run it and did you set it up for minimal writes? My concern is the reliability of the flash drives on the nslu2. The problem is that the nslu2 has minimal RAM space. Perhaps a Sheva plug or some other ARM device with more RAM might work better.

well I have a freenas system that runs completely off a usb stick plugged into the motherboard and uses sata hotswap drives for storage (granted nothing to do with nslu2 but it runs just fine)

I also have a patriot PBO that has an internal sata adapter and CF module in it, also runs without a problem and without the heat issues a sata drive in a PBO normally creates.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:01:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

if you don't need a ton of space go with a sata to CF adapter and just
get a compact flash stick the size you need.
it doesn't get much quieter than flash.

or just get a huge usb stick and plug it right in instead of a usb harddrive

> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2? I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan. 64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K, 1M, 10M but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others? I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
> Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

__._,_.___

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Doug | 2 Jan 2011 03:24

Re: Low power / quiet drive

Did you do anything to minimize writes to the flash drive? These things do have a write/erase limit do they not? There are always warnings about that but I never hear what the actual life expectancy in some typical situation is. The true solid state drives have algorithms that spread the writes across the memory map to extend the life.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:16:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 09:13 PM, Doug wrote:

OK, This is something you have done? If so how long have you run it and did you set it up for minimal writes? My concern is the reliability of the flash drives on the nslu2. The problem is that the nslu2 has minimal RAM space. Perhaps a Sheva plug or some other ARM device with more RAM might work better.

well I have a freenas system that runs completely off a usb stick plugged into the motherboard and uses sata hotswap drives for storage (granted nothing to do with nslu2 but it runs just fine)

I also have a patriot PBO that has an internal sata adapter and CF module in it, also runs without a problem and without the heat issues a sata drive in a PBO normally creates.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:01:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

if you don't need a ton of space go with a sata to CF adapter and just
get a compact flash stick the size you need.
it doesn't get much quieter than flash.

or just get a huge usb stick and plug it right in instead of a usb harddrive

> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2? I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan. 64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K, 1M, 10M but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others? I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
> Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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jon pounder | 2 Jan 2011 03:25

Re: Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 09:24 PM, Doug wrote:

Did you do anything to minimize writes to the flash drive? These things do have a write/erase limit do they not? There are always warnings about that but I never hear what the actual life expectancy in some typical situation is. The true solid state drives have algorithms that spread the writes across the memory map to extend the life.

disable swap and set noatime on the mounts is about it.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:16:13 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 09:13 PM, Doug wrote:

OK, This is something you have done? If so how long have you run it and did you set it up for minimal writes? My concern is the reliability of the flash drives on the nslu2. The problem is that the nslu2 has minimal RAM space. Perhaps a Sheva plug or some other ARM device with more RAM might work better.

well I have a freenas system that runs completely off a usb stick plugged into the motherboard and uses sata hotswap drives for storage (granted nothing to do with nslu2 but it runs just fine)

I also have a patriot PBO that has an internal sata adapter and CF module in it, also runs without a problem and without the heat issues a sata drive in a PBO normally creates.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: jon pounder <jonp-PJXPO3/4scSsTnJN9+BGXg@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 9:01:59 PM
Subject: Re: [nslu2-linux] Low power / quiet drive

On 01/01/2011 08:59 PM, Doug wrote:

if you don't need a ton of space go with a sata to CF adapter and just
get a compact flash stick the size you need.
it doesn't get much quieter than flash.

or just get a huge usb stick and plug it right in instead of a usb harddrive

> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2? I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan. 64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K, 1M, 10M but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others? I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
> Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
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stanley_p_miller_qaz | 2 Jan 2011 15:41

Re: Low power / quiet drive

I've had mine running from a thumb-drive 24x7 for a couple years now the wiki has the instructions, look for
TurnUp to see the script to run.

--- In nslu2-linux@..., Doug <dsc3507 <at> ...> wrote:
>
> OK,  This is something you have done? If so how long have you run it and did you 
> set it up for minimal writes? My concern is the reliability of the flash drives 
> on the nslu2.  The problem is that the nslu2 has minimal RAM space. Perhaps a 
> Sheva plug or some other ARM device with more RAM might work better. 
>

------------------------------------

headers

dystopianrebel | 3 Jan 2011 20:06

Re: Low power / quiet drive

I had the same concern as you do about wear-levelling on Flash memory used as an OS partition. 

I have had Slug OS running on two Slugs for years (literally - five years and counting, including upgrades)
on Hitachi microdrives. These products use the CompactFlash format and require a CompactFlash II type
reader. 

I bought the microdrives on EBay. You can search the history of this group for other discussions about
microdrives. 

--- In nslu2-linux@..., Doug <dsc3507 <at> ...> wrote:
>
> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux 
> on the nslu2?  I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green 
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws 
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan.  64G would be fine but I know 
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days. 
> 
> 
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but 
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember 
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K,  1M, 10M  but just what 
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than 
> others?  I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real 
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
> 
>  Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>

------------------------------------

headers

Mike Westerhof (mwester | 3 Jan 2011 20:22

Re: Low power / quiet drive

On 1/1/2011 7:59 PM, Doug wrote:
> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux 
> on the nslu2?  I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green 
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws 
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan.  64G would be fine but I know 
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days. 

Note that partition size is a concern on devices like the NSLU2 -- 32MB
of memory is simply not sufficient to fsck large partitions.  There's no
easy way to figure out what size works vs fails, really -- it depends on
what fsck has to do.  In the case where all is well, I think the
partition size needs be under 250GB or so.  When something is wrong,
well, there exist pathological cases where fsck can run practically any
host out of memory.  But you can just plug the drive into a desktop
system to fix the filesystem; I think you primarily want to *detect* the
issues on the NSLU2, not necessarily to repair them.

> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but 
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember 
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K,  1M, 10M  but just what 
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than 
> others?  I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real 
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?

http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/SlugOS/TurnupToRAID exists for exactly
this use-case. :)  The 8GB flash devices are dirt-cheap anymore; I'd
recommend getting two that are from different manufacturers to reduce
risk even further.

>  Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com

-Mike (mwester)

------------------------------------

headers

Doug | 4 Jan 2011 00:42

Re: Re: Low power / quiet drive

Well the microdrives are small and low power but I am not sure they are more reliable. It seems there is a bunch of opinions on that.

The WD green drives seem to be OK if you can solve the head parking issue. Supposedly WD has a utility to disable or change the head parking time but it does not always work. Another work around is to do something that writes to the drive every 5 seconds. Of course you would have to make sure you flush so it actually writes. The head park default time is said to be 8 seconds, so as long as you write more often then that it will not park. Of course this somewhat defeats the "green" power of the drive - when it parks it goes into a lower power state but for Linux this park time is unrealistic.

I have always cron'ed an every minute sync on all my Linux boxes. That might be overkill but I have never had a problem. In that case if I could set the head timeout to more than a minute it would prevent the heads from parking.

This parking presents two problems. There is a limited number of parking cycles (300K) that are spec'ed and once parked there is a considerable wait to unpark and come back online.

The Seagate Momentous drives look interesting although probably not real low power they combine flash and mechanical drives on one package along with algorithms that move most often accessed stuff to flash while keeping a copy in the real drive in case of flash failure. 500GB is $120 right now. Not sure how this would play with Linux though as it has a completely different read/write pattern then a Windows machine woul d.

Doug

Doug Crompton
WA3DSP
www.crompton.com

From: dystopianrebel <dystopianrebel-/E1597aS9LQAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org>
To: nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org
Sent: Mon, January 3, 2011 2:06:58 PM
Subject: [nslu2-linux] Re: Low power / quiet drive

I had the same concern as you do about wear-levelling on Flash memory used as an OS partition.

I have had Slug OS running on two Slugs for years (literally - five years and counting, including upgrades) on Hitachi microdrives. These products use the CompactFlash format and require a CompactFlash II type reader.

I bought the microdrives on EBay. You can search the history of this group for other discussions about microdrives.

--- In nslu2-linux-hHKSG33TihhbjbujkaE4pw@public.gmane.org, Doug <dsc3507 <at> ...> wrote:
>
> I wonder what the groups experience has been with low power drives under Linux
> on the nslu2? I see there are a lot of complaints about the WD Cavier Green
> drives but others seem to have no problems. I want a drive that runs cool, draws
> less power, and does not require a cooling fan. 64G would be fine but I know
> that 500G is probably a minimum now days.
>
>
> I am also interested in experiences with flash drives. I would go that route but
> the uncertainty of write cycle life leaves me a little concerned. I can remember
> way back when 10K writes was the norm life, then 100K, 1M, 10M but just what
> is the write life of these 8-64G USB sticks now and are some better than
> others? I know you can do things to extend the life but what have real
> experiences been? Has anyone "burned" one of these useless on an nslu2?
>
> Doug Crompton
> WA3DSP
> www.crompton.com
>

__._,_.___

Your email settings: Individual Email|Traditional
Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch to Fully Featured
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