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mite110011 | 1 Nov 19:18
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Re: Why the emphasis on graphics?


--- In xaml-talk <at> yahoogroups.com, "marc_clifton2000" <cliftonm <at> k...> 
wrote:
> 
> Hi Jason,
> 
> > Now if its good for asolutely anything you can put into an API is
> > another question.
> 
> This is very true.  I'm certainly not an advocate to put 
everything 
> into a declarative implementation, but I am trying to champion the 
> cause that Microsoft and third party vendors at least write their 
> classes so that they are declarative-friendly.  Microsoft has done 
> an excellent job with the .NET classes, sadly, third party 
> toolmakers do some really bizarre things.  One needs to only look 
at 
> their code serialized from their designers to see what a mess some 
> of their classes are.

Can you provied a specific example?

> > XAML is really mean to expose a system to non-
> > technical people so they can build and tweak things within that 
> > system.
> 
> I think this is treading on the realm of contradiction.  Tweaking 
> xml isn't easy--it looks like gibberish to a non-technical 
person.  
> Would a non-technical person know how to edit a vector path
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frankhileman | 1 Nov 20:05

Re: Why the emphasis on graphics?


I think Narc is saying, if you look at the output from a graphical 
designer, the coordinates produced, it does not look like something 
that could be created by hand. For example, if you convert an arc 
into a bezier path, you are going to get some control points you 
would never compute by hand.

On the other hand, a hierarchical text based interfaced (xml) is 
great for seeing the logical struture of a GUI or a graphical 
component.

The interesting thing is, that tree view doesn't have to be xml. It 
is easier to edit using a real tree control, not a text file, as 
long as you can do all the same things on both. This is how the best 
xml editors work. But it is not necessary for hierarchical data to 
be expressed as xml, to build a tree-view style editor. Binary data 
can be edited that way as well.

State machines are typically expressed as diagrams (Harel or now the 
UML equivalent).

You are right that editing xml is more clumsy than editing code -- 
especially if you are using a text editor and not a high-end xml 
editor. But one advantage of xml serialization is that inherent tree-
view visualization. Take a VG.net Picture, export as MyXaml, and 
compare to the code-dom serialized version. The MyXaml version is 
easier to read, simply because of the tree-view. The data is 
identical.

Frank
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Gerald Bauer | 2 Nov 03:19
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Mobiform XAML Suite (Browser, Designer, Control & More) Now Out


Hello,

  allow me to forward the latest Mobiform XAML suite release
announcement. Here we go:

  Vancouver, Canada, 31 Oct. – Mobiform Software Ltd. a leader in XML
based graphics software for the Internet and desktop announces the
release of their XAML Product Suite.

  XAML (pronounced `ZAML') is an XML based vector markup specification
produced by Microsoft. XAML is one of the primary pillars in the next
version of Windows (Windows 2006 – Code Name `Longhorn'). If you are
familiar with W3C standards, XAML is like HTML, XForms and SVG in one
specification. XAML has all of the capabilities of HTML, Flash and PDF
combined in a single XML based markup language. XAML uses .NET as its
code behind technology. In addition XAML will deliver the 3D Internet
experience to web users with the XAML 3D capabilities. 

MOBIFORM has been involved in XML based graphics and .NET for some
time and has produced an SVG rendering engine that uses .NET as its
script or code behind language. Mobiform has released a suite of XAML
authoring and rendering software products for Windows XP and Longhorn.
These products will allow companies in industrial automation, control
systems, GIS, mapping, medical and other visualization intensive
verticals to embrace XAML on Windows XP Today.

The Mobiform XAML Authoring Suite includes:
Mobiform Aurora Editor– A graphical XAML authoring tool for creating
2D XAML documents. For Windows XP and Longhorn.
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Gerald Bauer | 2 Nov 03:41
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Discussion Spotlight: Role of XAML on SVG Group


Hello,

  Kurt Cagle has kicked off a discussion on the SVG developers group
titled "Role of XAML on SVG Group".

  Kurt writes:

 I've seen the issue about the relevancy or appropriateness of XAML
within the SVG-Dev list a number of times, and would like to open up a
discussion here, as it may influence may own writings as well.

  XAML is undoubtedly a technology that competes across the board with
SVG, HTML, XSL-FO, XUL, etc. I have three questions with regards to
it, however.

1) Are people migrating from SVG to XAML (or building XAML parallel
track developments) in their application development work?

2) Do people on this list feel that XAML is a worthwhile tool to be
developing on, or do they fear that IP issues will end up pulling the 
rug out from under them?

3) Should XAML be covered within the SVG-Development list?

I know I'm opening up a can of worms here ... it's my intent, but I
think that that the adoption of or avoidance of XAML has become a
major issue with SVG developers and would like to get a sense for what
people think.
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Gerald Bauer | 2 Nov 05:25
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XAML Shapes == SVG - Comments?


Hello,

   Ron DeSerranno (of Mobiform XAML fame) comments on the role of XAML
in the SVG world: 

  As far as covering XAML on the SVG developers list. I think XAML
should use the Xaml news group, but as I mentioned at my talk at
SchemaSoft the other week and here on this list, wrt the shapes sub
section of XAML and SVG I don't really differentiate the two. Given
that, healthy discussion about the pro's and cons of each should be 
showing up in both groups....

   Source: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.text.xml.svg.devel/29303

   What's your take? Do you agree with Ron that XAML shapes and SVG
are pretty much identical?

   - Gerald

-----------------------
Gerald Bauer
Rich Client Conference (RichCon) 2005 - http://richcon.com
XUL News Wire - http://xulnews.com
XUL Alliance - http://xulalliance.org

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Gerald Bauer | 2 Nov 20:01
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Xamlon Roadmap Now Online - Xamlon for Flash or Java - Why Not?


Hello,

  Paul Colton - the founder and CEO of Xamlon Inc. - has posted the
Xamlon product roadmap.

  Paul writes:

  We're already hard at work on Xamlon 1.5.  We're also finalizing a
roadmap detailing additional products for 2005, and we need your help.
Please review the brief roadmap below and provide your feedback.  What
features and fixes are most important to you for Xamlon Pro 1.5?  What
sort of education and support services would help you?  And, what
future releases would you like to see?  We have a range of ideas for
our next products (detailed under "potential future releases," below)
and we need to know what would be most useful to you.

  More @
http://www.xamlon.com/forums/shwmessage.aspx?ForumID=2&MessageID=681

  What's your take? Do you want to see Xamlon (XAML) engines for
Flash, Mono or Java?

   - Gerald

-----------------------
Gerald Bauer
Rich Client Conference (RichCon) 2005 - http://richcon.com
XUL News Wire - http://xulnews.com
XUL Alliance - http://xulalliance.org
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Gerald Bauer | 4 Nov 03:18
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Article: More Avalon XAML Data Binding Craziness


Hello,

  Chris Sells - Microsoft's Content Strategist for the Windows 2009
(Longhorn) Developer site - has written a new article titled "More
Avalon XAML Data Binding Craziness" that builds upon the previous
Solitaire application by adding style selectors into the existing
data-binding mix.

  Chris concludes:

 Avalon seems to be like ASP.NET because of the XAML syntax, but we're
not generating more XAML. Avalon also seems like the Windows Forms
model, but we're not just adding strings to the Items collection.
Instead, Avalon data binding is something new. The XAML itself is
static and most often compiled into the application, but we're
generating UI elements in the visual tree at run time. So, for smart
clients connecting to a server to generate dynamic content, it's
unlikely they'll collect XAML but rather data to bind to the Avalon
styles defined in the static XAML, using styles, style selectors and
transformers along the way to make decisions about which elements to
generate based on the data.  

  Full story @
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnfoghorn/html/foghorn10132004.asp

   - Gerald

-----------------------
Gerald Bauer
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Gerald Bauer | 4 Nov 21:17
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What is XAML? A technique? A language? Both? XML# or XML++?


Hello,

  Adam Kinney (of Team Xamlon) has kicked off a discussion titled
"What is XAML?"

  Adam writes:

  I've seen some talk about this recently and I've had it made it
clear to me by Chris Sells (Microsoft) and Chris Anderson (Microsoft).
This definition is actually straight from ChrisAn's mouth:

  XAML is a declarative markup language that defines an object model

It's not Avalon.  It doesn't have doesn't have controls, shapes,
animation or transforms.  The XAML is parsed and turned into an object
tree in memory and from there its up to the engine to instantiate
objects and whatever else is requested by the instructions.

  Source: http://www.adamkinney.com/message.aspx?ID=322

  Don Demsak comments:

  Yep, it is just a declarative way to join .Net objects together. No
more, no less.

  Think Domain Specific Language done in XML. 

   What's your take? Is XAML just a technique to wire up .NET objects?
Is XAML a language like lets say HTML or SVG? Is XAML both - a
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Gerald Bauer | 4 Nov 21:38
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DevX Article: Learn to Write XAML Apps Today


Hello,

  DevX has published an article titled "Learn to Write XAML
Applications Today with Xamlon" by Alex Hildyard.

   Alex writes:

   XAML is an XML-based markup language that describes UI content and
behavior. The concept is similar to the combination of HTML and
JavaScript used in Web applications today, but far more ambitious.
"Avalon" is the codename for the runtime that interprets XAML
documents and turns them into interactive applications.

   And Alex concludes:

   Xamlon's founders haven't chosen the easiest path. On one hand,
Xamlon may find market share because it offers Avalon's technology
today, but will you want to use Xamlon when Avalon is finally
released? A few months ago, many would have considered Xamlon because
it offers back-level support for all the Windows variants that can run
the .NET 1.1 runtime, but Microsoft recently pledged to implement
WinFX—the technology that underpins Avalon—on both Windows XP and
Windows Server 2003. That still doesn't give Avalon quite as wide an
O/S base as Xamlon—but does it make sense to target Windows 98 in 2005?

  Full story @ http://www.devx.com/dotnet/Article/22341
   or http://www.devx.com/dotnet/Article/22341/1954?pf=true

  - Gerald
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Gerald Bauer | 5 Nov 22:37
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Re: What is XAML? A technique? A language? Both? XML# or XML++?


Hello,

   For a different perspective on  "What is XAML?" allow me to quote
from the "About XAML" page from the XAML pioneer Mobiform. Here we go:

   XAML (pronounced `ZAML') is an XML based vector markup
specification produced by Microsoft. XAML is one of the primary
pillars in the next version of Windows (Windows 2006). If you are
familiar with W3C standards, XAML is like HTML, XForms and SVG in one
specification.

   XAML has all of the capabilities of HTML, Flash and PDF combined in
a single XML based markup language. XAML uses .NET as its code behind
technology. In addition XAML will deliver the 3D internet experience
to web users with the XAML 3D capabilities. 

   Source: http://www.mobiform.com/2005/XAML/aboutXAML.htm

   Any comments?

  - Gerald

-----------------------
Gerald Bauer
Rich Client Conference (RichCon) 2005 -
http://richcon.com
XUL News Wire - http://xulnews.com
XUL Alliance - http://xulalliance.org
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