headers
Igor Stasenko | 1 Apr 01:38
Picon

Problems installing FFI on 3.10 release

Anyone tried to install subject onto fresh 3.10 image?

It stops with error, trying to react on class change notification,
while it's own internal structures still not initialized (StructTypes
classvar).
Seem like a simple order of initialization bug.

--

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Permalink | Reply | 16 comments |
headers
Gary Chambers | 1 Apr 01:43

FW: [UI] Call to arms


-----Original Message-----
From: ui-bounces <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org
[mailto:ui-bounces <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
Sent: 29 March 2008 9:50 PM
To: Squeak's User Interface
Subject: [UI] Call to arms

Right, I think we want to improve Squeak in terms of user interaction.
This may be far-ranging to start with. This is a call for discussion.

Where do we want to be with Squeak, anybody with an investment it the way it currently works is welcome.

We are looking at re-engineering the basics, the VM teams are welcome to add their 2 (cents, pennies, etc).

I think we envisage a framework (for want of a better word)  that is rather fundamental, upon which existing
Morphic can live, along with opportunities for radical new ui frameworks.

Hands up, and we'll see who can form a team.

Gary.
Permalink | Reply | 4 comments |
headers
Derek O'Connell | 1 Apr 09:58
Picon

Re: The Old Man

http://www.linux.com/feature/130023
Permalink | Reply | 0 comments |
headers
Andrew Tween | 1 Apr 10:25
Picon

Re: Problems installing FFI on 3.10 release

Hi
"Igor Stasenko" <siguctua <at> gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:4a5f5f320803311638k61efe03fr87bcb8fdde05ccca <at> mail.gmail.com...
> Anyone tried to install subject onto fresh 3.10 image?
>
> It stops with error, trying to react on class change notification,
> while it's own internal structures still not initialized (StructTypes
> classvar).
> Seem like a simple order of initialization bug.

It loads ok, from Universe, if it is the first thing loaded.
It fails to load in a 3.10 developer image -see 
http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6952

Cheers,
Andy

>
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>
Permalink | Reply | 10 comments |
headers
Derek O'Connell | 1 Apr 10:56
Picon

Re: FW: [UI] Call to arms

Count me in. Don't know exactly how I can contribute yet but this is
an area I am keen to be involved in. ATM I am trying to collect my
thoughts on an alternative UI for Nokia Internet Tablets that I call
"STack Fusion".

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 12:43 AM, Gary Chambers
<gazzaguru2 <at> btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>
>  -----Original Message-----
>  From: ui-bounces <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org
>  [mailto:ui-bounces <at> lists.squeakfoundation.org]On Behalf Of Gary Chambers
>  Sent: 29 March 2008 9:50 PM
>  To: Squeak's User Interface
>  Subject: [UI] Call to arms
>
>
>  Right, I think we want to improve Squeak in terms of user interaction.
>  This may be far-ranging to start with. This is a call for discussion.
>
>  Where do we want to be with Squeak, anybody with an investment it the way it currently works is welcome.
>
>  We are looking at re-engineering the basics, the VM teams are welcome to add their 2 (cents, pennies, etc).
>
>  I think we envisage a framework (for want of a better word)  that is rather fundamental, upon which existing
Morphic can live, along with opportunities for radical new ui frameworks.
>
>  Hands up, and we'll see who can form a team.
>
>  Gary.
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 1 comment |
headers
Andreas Raab | 1 Apr 11:27
Picon
Picon

Re: Problems installing FFI on 3.10 release

Andrew Tween wrote:
> It loads ok, from Universe, if it is the first thing loaded.
> It fails to load in a 3.10 developer image -see 
> http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=6952

Yeah, I was just looking at this. BTW, has anyone actually tried to work 
with the Squeak-dev image naively? It's a complete screw-up; here is my 
experience with sq3.10-7159dev08.03.1.image:
* Try to open a new browser; looks like the system is frozen; three 
seconds later the browser *finally* appears
* Try to open a Universe browser (basic); no search facility; oh well...
* Try to open a Universe browser (enhanced); it has search (yay!); 
search for "FFI"; it explodes (some OB internal error)
* Open the basic universe browser again; open every goddamn tree to find 
the FFI; each tree takes about five seconds to open them all because 
it's so goddamn slooooooooow
* about a minute later, finally, FINALLY, find the FFI; click on FFI 
version 3.9 and "select package"; wait ten seconds before it *finally* 
selects something
* Try loading it; it explodes; abort it; expect to find the so-called 
"atomic" load to leave no traces behind; find out that that's not true
* Quit and go through the same process again; try with 3.9.1; it 
explodes again
* Open a debugger; find the place where it goes wrong; "browse" to it; 
ten endless seconds later a browser *finally* appears
* Navigate to ExternalType; try to understand what is wrong with 
StructTypes; WHERE THE HELL IS CLASS VAR REFS IN OB???

Giving up. This is completely and utterly unusable. Every single step 
takes five seconds or more. I have never seen a Squeak image that has
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 9 comments |
headers
Bert Freudenberg | 1 Apr 11:29
Picon
Gravatar

Re: The Old Man


On 31.03.2008, at 17:10, Nikolay Suslov wrote:
> Bert,
>
> Please, could you be more concrete, what means: "people do for fun"?  
> (CADT - is not an explanation ..as it is joking)
> I could argue that the all significant projects were doing by people  
> not for getting "fun" from the "developement or any other  
> process" (aka "masturbation", if seriously),
> but with the generous, unselfish ideas of  "changing the around  
> world" and continuing themeselves in project's "childs".
> Don't think that all people just working for money or for "fun"  
> while eating chocolate, gaming and drinking beer after work.. and  
> believe, that nothing "fun" for the rest of the world couldn't be  
> expected from such work (paid or unpaid)..

I was not implying that - I was referring to the many abandoned  
projects, not the active, flourishing ones. Again, Marcus would have  
to be more specific what specifically he had in mind. One example of  
"the perfect is the enemy of the good" are the series of JIT compiler  
implementations, none of which were finished, so Squeak still pretty  
much has the same interpreter it had ten years ago. The positive way  
of expressing CADT would be "burn the disk packs" and in particular in  
a research environment that is indeed the best you can do. It's simply  
a different motivation - do you build to have, or do you build to  
know? The latter does not require completion to be successful.

- Bert -

> Best regards,
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 6 comments |
headers
Andreas Raab | 1 Apr 11:44
Picon
Picon

Re: The Old Man

Bert Freudenberg wrote:
> I was not implying that - I was referring to the many abandoned 
> projects, not the active, flourishing ones. Again, Marcus would have to 
> be more specific what specifically he had in mind. One example of "the 
> perfect is the enemy of the good" are the series of JIT compiler 
> implementations, none of which were finished, so Squeak still pretty 
> much has the same interpreter it had ten years ago.

Uhm, isn't *that* just a precise argument to the opposite? Incremental 
improvements instead of half-finished research projects? Instead of 
rewriting the VM everytime and not quite finishing it ever, the speed f 
the VM has doubled over the last ten years:

0 tinyBenchmarks; Squeak1.1:
    '82740788 bytecodes/sec; 3818244 sends/sec'

0 tinyBenchmarks; Squeak3.8:
   '191760299 bytecodes/sec; 5460228 sends/sec'

Coincidentally, some of these improvements (like the at-cache) are 
direct results of the more researchy efforts.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

> The positive way of 
> expressing CADT would be "burn the disk packs" and in particular in a 
> research environment that is indeed the best you can do. It's simply a 
> different motivation - do you build to have, or do you build to know? 
> The latter does not require completion to be successful.
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 5 comments |
headers
Bert Freudenberg | 1 Apr 12:06
Picon
Gravatar

Re: Re: The Old Man


On 01.04.2008, at 11:44, Andreas Raab wrote:
> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> I was not implying that - I was referring to the many abandoned  
>> projects, not the active, flourishing ones. Again, Marcus would  
>> have to be more specific what specifically he had in mind. One  
>> example of "the perfect is the enemy of the good" are the series of  
>> JIT compiler implementations, none of which were finished, so  
>> Squeak still pretty much has the same interpreter it had ten years  
>> ago.
>
> Uhm, isn't *that* just a precise argument to the opposite?  
> Incremental improvements instead of half-finished research projects?

Err, I think you read me backwards, or I was imprecise. Yes, that is  
exactly the argument for incremental improvement. The Squeak VM is  
quite fast for a pure interpreter.

What we will never know is if the first Jitter had been incrementally  
improved rather than being abandoned like all its successors, it may  
have surpassed the current interpreter performance by far. The  
downside is that it would inherently be much more complex - the  
interpreter strikes a nice balance here.

Anyway, we seem to agree that incremental improvements is precisely  
what gets you usable near-term pink-plane results, and I think that  
was the gist of Marcus' message, too.

- Bert -
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 4 comments |
headers
astares | 1 Apr 13:47
Picon
Picon

Re: Problems installing FFI on 3.10 release

Hi Andreas,

the problem comes from Monticello 1.5 which is AFAIK now used 
in squeak-dev image.
(Note that the squeak-dev image from Damien for 3.10 is still
beta!). 

So let's try the real 3.10 without anything loaded. The
offical release 3.10 image is 
http://ftp.squeak.org/3.10/Squeak3.10.gamma.7159.zip

When I use this clean image and open Universe Browser,
select "update list from network", then 
load System ->FFI Version 3.9.1    -> IT WORKS AND LOADS FINE

(but still has the NetNameResolver problem (Mantis 6980) we 
 discussed in March and which requires your patch for the image 
 before loading FFI)

Using Monticello 1.5 in Sq 3.10 is currently problematic. For instance 
it makes an ugly overrides for HTTPSocket>>httpPut:to:user:passwd:
where HTTPProxyServer class variable is used directly 
instead of using "self httpProxyServer". This was OK for pre 3.10
but now things have changed.

Bye
Torsten

--

-- 
Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten
(Continue reading)

Permalink | Reply | 0 comments |

Gmane