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marvin_littlewood_426716 | 1 Nov 2008 10:46
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Goodbye to Eiffel?

Hello Everyone

I have been wondering what to do with ISE Eiffel. I intend to wait 
for the upcoming "improve quality" (v6.3) release of Eiffel before 
deciding whether to continue using the language and EiffelStudio. 
What was a high quality tool when I started (v5.3) appears to have 
suffered in the face of a slew of new features.

Perhaps my first issue is that the important ideas in Bertrand 
Meyer's book about Object Oriented Software Construction (which 
attracted me in the first place), such as concurrency and object 
persistence in databases remain to be implemented. A spec for SCOOP 
exists; isn't it time to incorporate it into the main stream?

My second issue is that the Eiffel standard breaks too much existing 
code and removes features like indexing, which were a useful 
innovation in support of the generation of documentation. When I 
tried to compile for Void safety, a large number of bizarre errors 
turned up telling me that two features with the same text signature 
were in fact different but perhaps most annoying of all, I had to 
adopt cut and paste coding for create functions. This is not a 
useful "improvement" in a slow evolving standard and will not 
encourage me to adopt it. 

FWIW why replace LACE with the extra complexity of XML? Perhaps I am 
a luddite but LACE was easy to understand, use and occasionally edit. 
The interface to the arguably more capable XML almost always has to 
be through tools and is unpleasant to wade through when trying to 
understand configuration problems.
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Peter Gummer | 1 Nov 2008 14:13
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Re: Goodbye to Eiffel?

marvin_littlewood_426716 wrote:
> What was a high quality tool when I started (v5.3) appears to have 
> suffered in the face of a slew of new features.
>   

Wow. My experience has been the exact opposite. I started with 5.4. It 
crashed so often I could hardly believe it. I have no such problems 
these days: the quality has improved enormously.

> My second issue is that the Eiffel standard breaks too much existing 
> code and removes features like indexing ...

The standard hasn't removed "indexing", it's renamed it to "note".

And what code is broken? I've been amazed at how I've had to change only 
a handful of lines of code due to the changes of the last few releases.

> ... When I tried to compile for Void safety ...

You're brave to have attempted that! So you tried an interesting 
experiment that didn't work ... just go back to the old way.

I expect the transition to void safety will be gradual. We've been using 
attachment markers, to get the benefit of compile-time checking.

> My third issue is with EiffelStudio itself. In regard of the GUI, a 
> useful view such as the class feature list is not properly updated 
> after re-compiling - forcing a close and re-open of the editing 
> window to get a partial and often incorrect listing of features. 
> There are other annoyances like failing properly to remember the
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azador1606 | 1 Nov 2008 14:25
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Re: Goodbye to Eiffel?

I agree with Marvin. I have dropped ISE like the lemon it is.

But the language is still fundamentally sound and has great potential.

Old versions still work. Of course a half decent .NET Eiffel compiler would make my day. Sigh!
Sent via BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Gummer <p-gummer@...>

Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2008 00:13:10 
To: <eiffel_software@...>
Subject: Re: [eiffel_software] Goodbye to Eiffel?


marvin_littlewood_426716 wrote:
> What was a high quality tool when I started (v5.3) appears to have 
> suffered in the face of a slew of new features.
>   

Wow. My experience has been the exact opposite. I started with 5.4. It 
crashed so often I could hardly believe it. I have no such problems 
these days: the quality has improved enormously.

> My second issue is that the Eiffel standard breaks too much existing 
> code and removes features like indexing ...

The standard hasn't removed "indexing", it's renamed it to "note".

And what code is broken? I've been amazed at how I've had to change only
(Continue reading)

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rfo | 1 Nov 2008 15:27

RE: [eiffel_software] Goodbye to Eiffel?

Have either of you ever considered contributing to the effort to help it
become the tool you seek?  That's not an option with Visual Studio of
course, but it is with Eiffel Studio, and that's a very nice thing.

We're not talking about the weather here (excellent complaining
potential but no remediation potential); we're talking about a
remarkably well built system that competes with other systems that have
in the neighborhood of a Billion dollars of R&D investment.  I suggest
if you want it better, then you should at least try to make it better.

I confess that I'm not always Suzie Sunshine, but with my eyes open and
the lights on, I am grateful for Eiffel Studio (and all that goes with
it) and I've used a number of other IDEs (so, it's not a baby duck
issue).  My most recent experience is with 6.2 and overall I see it as
quite a bit improved over 6.1 (though not without it's warts), which in
turn was quite an improvement over 5.7.

I've been using Eiffel since the dark ages (Eiffel 2) and yes, there
have been breaking changes throughout the years, but since 5.1, they
have been pretty easy to deal with and the backward compatibility has
been laudable.  That doesn't mean I like them any more than you do.  The
folks at Eiffel Software (and in the ECMA committee) have become better
at this over time, but there's always some room for improvement.

I have expressed my concern on occasion that the world would end if
such-and-such a feature appeared, or went away, or that the standard did
this or that, but as it happens, the world did not end.  In fact, each
change, despite my reticence, made things better for me.  It just took
me a while to realize it.  I've had to adapt a little, but it's all been
for the better (at least so far).
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Ted | 1 Nov 2008 17:01
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Re: How to change search highlighting?

Did you change the background color of non-focused selection? Because
you normally get non-focused selection when you typing into the search
bar. I think it will work once you do so.

Ted

--- In eiffel_software@..., "Chris Saunders" <evas <at> ...> wrote:
>
> I attempted to use this as I have the same problem when searching
for text.
> This does not work - it does change the selection color but searches are
> still selected in a color that does not provide enough contrast to
see it.
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
> Chris Saunders
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: eiffel_software@...
> [mailto:eiffel_software@...] On Behalf Of Ted
> Sent: October-29-08 11:19 PM
> To: eiffel_software@...
> Subject: [eiffel_software] Re: How to change search highlighting?
>
(Continue reading)

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Chris Saunders | 1 Nov 2008 17:36

RE: Re: How to change search highlighting?

Thanks Ted.  This helped.  The selection on the first found string is still
a light gray but anymore found are highlighted nicely.

Regards

Chris Saunders

From: eiffel_software@...
[mailto:eiffel_software@...] On Behalf Of Ted
Sent: November-01-08 12:02 PM
To: eiffel_software@...
Subject: [eiffel_software] Re: How to change search highlighting?

Did you change the background color of non-focused selection? Because
you normally get non-focused selection when you typing into the search
bar. I think it will work once you do so.

Ted

--- In eiffel_software@...
<mailto:eiffel_software%40yahoogroups.com> , "Chris Saunders" <evas <at> ...>
wrote:
>
> I attempted to use this as I have the same problem when searching
for text.
> This does not work - it does change the selection color but searches are
> still selected in a color that does not provide enough contrast to
see it.
> 
>
(Continue reading)

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azador1606 | 1 Nov 2008 22:23
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Re: Goodbye to Eiffel?

Yes
But as I'm primarily interested in a .NET version Gobo Eiffel makes a more sensible starting point. (Even
more so than ISE not compiling on 64 bit Ubuntu)

Sent via BlackBerry® from Vodafone

-----Original Message-----
From: <rfo@...>

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2008 07:27:32 
To: <eiffel_software@...>
Subject: RE: [eiffel_software] Goodbye to Eiffel?


Have either of you ever considered contributing to the effort to help it
become the tool you seek?  That's not an option with Visual Studio of
course, but it is with Eiffel Studio, and that's a very nice thing.

We're not talking about the weather here (excellent complaining
potential but no remediation potential); we're talking about a
remarkably well built system that competes with other systems that have
in the neighborhood of a Billion dollars of R&D investment.  I suggest
if you want it better, then you should at least try to make it better.

I confess that I'm not always Suzie Sunshine, but with my eyes open and
the lights on, I am grateful for Eiffel Studio (and all that goes with
it) and I've used a number of other IDEs (so, it's not a baby duck
issue).  My most recent experience is with 6.2 and overall I see it as
quite a bit improved over 6.1 (though not without it's warts), which in
turn was quite an improvement over 5.7.
(Continue reading)

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Helmut Brandl | 2 Nov 2008 19:02
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Re: Goodbye to Eiffel?

marvin_littlewood_426716 wrote:
> Hello Everyone
>
> I have been wondering what to do with ISE Eiffel. I intend to wait 
> for the upcoming "improve quality" (v6.3) release of Eiffel before 
> deciding whether to continue using the language and EiffelStudio. 
> What was a high quality tool when I started (v5.3) appears to have 
> suffered in the face of a slew of new features.
>
> Perhaps my first issue is that the important ideas in Bertrand 
> Meyer's book about Object Oriented Software Construction (which 
> attracted me in the first place), such as concurrency and object 
> persistence in databases remain to be implemented. A spec for SCOOP 
> exists; isn't it time to incorporate it into the main stream?
>
>   
Can you give me a reference to the spec of SCOOP. I am not aware of a 
specification, but I would highly appreciate any information.

Regards
Helmut

The Eiffel Compiler: http://tecomp.sourceforge.net
http://www.sourceforge.net/projects/tecomp

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javier hector | 2 Nov 2008 21:33
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Re: Goodbye to Eiffel?

You can see http://scoop.origo.ethz.ch/

________________________________
De: Helmut Brandl <helmut.brandl@...>
Para: eiffel_software@...
Enviado: domingo 2 de noviembre de 2008, 15:02:51
Asunto: Re: [eiffel_software] Goodbye to Eiffel?

marvin_littlewood_ 426716 wrote:
> Hello Everyone
>
> I have been wondering what to do with ISE Eiffel. I intend to wait 
> for the upcoming "improve quality" (v6.3) release of Eiffel before 
> deciding whether to continue using the language and EiffelStudio. 
> What was a high quality tool when I started (v5.3) appears to have 
> suffered in the face of a slew of new features.
>
> Perhaps my first issue is that the important ideas in Bertrand 
> Meyer's book about Object Oriented Software Construction (which 
> attracted me in the first place), such as concurrency and object 
> persistence in databases remain to be implemented. A spec for SCOOP 
> exists; isn't it time to incorporate it into the main stream?
>
> 
Can you give me a reference to the spec of SCOOP. I am not aware of a 
specification, but I would highly appreciate any information.

Regards
Helmut
(Continue reading)

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mariosangiorgio86 | 2 Nov 2008 23:10
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[EiffelStudio and .Net] debugger crashes but the compiled project works.

Hi,
I'm experiencing a very strange problem with a Eiffel .Net project
that exploits a .Net library to access Virtual Earth web-services.

My system is Windows Vista SP1 Pc with Eiffel Studio 6.2.

If I run the project with the EiffelStudio debugger I'm getting a
crash of the IDE(ec.exe has stopped working).
In the call-stack of the operation that is executed just before the
crash the status is "Explicit exception pending" and I can read "First
chance exception occurred".
Why am I not getting the exception when I run the compiled project?

I don't think the problem is in the library because I can use without
any flaw the code in the library form a C# project and also the
executable compiled by EiffelStudio works perfetly.

What should I do to get debugger work or at least where can I get
detailed information about the execution that is causing the crash?

Mario

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Gmane