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Roger F. Gay | 1 Nov 2004 09:33
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema

I think it will help make what we're doing more
efficient if I repeat that I've been through the whole
schema review process once already. I don't mean that
my work should no longer be reviewed in the future. I
mean that we've faced all these issues before. So, if
I'm direct at times, it's because general
understanding has already been developed.

There will be more than one version of the schema set!

Go ahead and put what I've already done into CVS.
We'll just need to think about the names of the xsd
files ... for example drl_base.xsd, drl_se.xsd ... and
include clear documentation that will help application
developers make the best choice. Some will be able to
use one of the schema sets right out of the box, while
others will be looking for the one that is closest to
what they need and easiest to modify / maintain.

And no -- we don't want a thousand schema sets in cvs
just to confuse everyone. Each base schema must be
designed in the best way for a particular purpose.
I've already been through this.

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> Cool, sounds like you have some interesting
> solutions to show us, look 
> forward to seeing those and your patches so we can
> review and apply to cvs.
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Mark Proctor | 1 Nov 2004 12:56

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

I have created some initial documentation in order to show why we took 
the approach of using abstract elements, root types and de-coupling 
java, groovy and python xsds from rule.xsd - with an aim to give a wider 
picture of how this currently fits in with the drools application.

http://drools.org/Schema+Validation

Mark
Roger F. Gay wrote:

>I think it will help make what we're doing more
>efficient if I repeat that I've been through the whole
>schema review process once already. I don't mean that
>my work should no longer be reviewed in the future. I
>mean that we've faced all these issues before. So, if
>I'm direct at times, it's because general
>understanding has already been developed.
>
>There will be more than one version of the schema set!
>
>Go ahead and put what I've already done into CVS.
>We'll just need to think about the names of the xsd
>files ... for example drl_base.xsd, drl_se.xsd ... and
>include clear documentation that will help application
>developers make the best choice. Some will be able to
>use one of the schema sets right out of the box, while
>others will be looking for the one that is closest to
>what they need and easiest to modify / maintain.
>
>And no -- we don't want a thousand schema sets in cvs
(Continue reading)

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Mark Proctor | 1 Nov 2004 15:04

[drools-dev] Drools QuickStart Guide

Just going through my old emails and found this. Bart do you still want 
this example included?  If so could you do the following for me:
Create docs, similar to what we already have on the site
Create drl files for groovy and python

Maybe you could come on irc to discuss this? There is a web gateway to 
connect via a browser at:
http://irc.codehaus.org

Mark
Barto, Jason P wrote:

> Attached is the Drools-Demo directory from my Eclipse workspace.  It's 
> an Eclipse project so you should be able to just pop it in and go.  
> Although you might have to tweak the project's properties regarding 
> location of Java compiler and where the Drools jar files are.
>
>  
>
> Please take a look at it and let me know if it is a good example / 
> startup demo.  One thing which I think definitely needs to be reviewed 
> is the rules XML it uses.  It has 8 rules, 4 which monitor a Weather 
> objects attributes and set a description attribute of the Weather 
> object.  The next 4 rules then output a particular message based on 
> the value of the Weather object's description.
>
>  
>
> Essentially the demo operates like this:
>
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Roger F. Gay | 1 Nov 2004 18:59
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema


The big question is why? A lot of work has been done
on the schemas and the technology has already been
developed to a more advanced stage that what you're
discussing. Matching schema design with the drools
vision was already taken up more than a year ago when
the first schema set was developed. What you're
presenting now is about as close to realizing the
dream as that first schema was for Drools 1.

I see a lot of work to be done related to the schema
(directly and indirectly related – dependent), work
that could benefit the drools project immensely.
There's plenty of work for everyone, and I don't see
the benefit of spinning the wheels in one place.

If you're acting as project leader, what's the plan?
Have you closed this part of the project to outside
contributions? Has a drools-wide decision been made to
limit interest in building new products and technology
that incorporate drools?

I have been interested in going a long way with
drools, but the character of the project seems to have
changed dramatically. I need to know what's going on.

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> I have created some initial documentation in order
> to show why we took
(Continue reading)

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peter royal | 1 Nov 2004 20:58
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema

On Nov 1, 2004, at 12:59 PM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> I see a lot of work to be done related to the schema
> (directly and indirectly related – dependent), work
> that could benefit the drools project immensely.
> There's plenty of work for everyone, and I don't see
> the benefit of spinning the wheels in one place.

excellent! can you create an issue in JIRA and attach patches to bring 
the schemas in CVS up to the level where they need to be?

> Have you closed this part of the project to outside
> contributions? Has a drools-wide decision been made to
> limit interest in building new products and technology
> that incorporate drools?

not at all... its just that drools is a do-ocracy and Mark has been 
doing a lot of the work. (Thanks Mark!)

we're more than happy to incorporate outside contributions, we just ask 
that patches against the CVS code be attached to a JIRA issue at which 
point in time they'll get reviewed and either applied or feedback 
given.
-pete
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Mark Proctor | 1 Nov 2004 23:53

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

Roger,

As stated before I started work on the xsds as I didn't know about any 
existing xsds. The original ones had become out of date and 
unmaintained, they still had jelly refences in them, so another 
developer, not me, removed them. I checked the mailing list you last 
showed interest in drools back in March, we've had a complete developer 
turnover (minus bob ofcourse) since then, thats a long long time in the 
opensource world and drools has gone through several code maintenance 
and tidy ups since then in the transition from drools 1.0 to drools 2.0 
- if no active developer seems to be maintaining an area of code and its 
out of date with no one coming forward to maintain it, then its going to 
be deleted. If you want to work in the opensource world, learn to love 
and live with its fluid dynamic nature - like King Canute, you cannot 
hold back the tide.

The way I see it there are three options:
1) Use the xs:any tag and declare a target namespace. This was used in 
your original schemas and is not desirable as the user can literally use 
"any" tag from that namespace, so he/she could add a condition where a 
consequence is required and worse still it couples rule.drl to the 
semantic drls - as you must specify the java, groovy and python as 
available target namespaces. From your original base rule file:
<xs:group name="OptionalRuleChildren">
<xs:choice>
<xs:element name="declaration" type="drl-parameter" />
<xs:element name="extraction" type="drl-extraction" />
<xs:element name="condition" type="drl-condition" />
</xs:choice>
</xs:group>
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Roger F. Gay | 2 Nov 2004 16:21
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema

You're evading the questions. A complete schema set
has already been created and contributed. A second
effort, almost complete has been reported that
separates the base schema completely from semantic
support schema.

This isn't at all about out of date schemas. This is
the situation now. Why are you driving forward as
though none of that work has been done?

--- Mark Proctor <mproctor <at> codehaus.org> wrote:

> Roger,
> 
> As stated before I started work on the xsds as I
> didn't know about any 
> existing xsds. The original ones had become out of
> date and 
> unmaintained, they still had jelly refences in them,
> so another 
> developer, not me, removed them. I checked the
> mailing list you last 
> showed interest in drools back in March, we've had a
> complete developer 
> turnover (minus bob ofcourse) since then, thats a
> long long time in the 
> opensource world and drools has gone through several
> code maintenance 
> and tidy ups since then in the transition from
> drools 1.0 to drools 2.0
(Continue reading)

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peter royal | 2 Nov 2004 17:19
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema

On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> You're evading the questions. A complete schema set
> has already been created and contributed. A second
> effort, almost complete has been reported that
> separates the base schema completely from semantic
> support schema.
>
> This isn't at all about out of date schemas. This is
> the situation now. Why are you driving forward as
> though none of that work has been done?

Roger, I don't see a JIRA issue for any updated schemas, did I overlook 
it?

The only open JIRA issue wrt schemas I found was:

http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/DROOLS-65

.. and that's a year old (and clearly references out-of-date schemas).

It sounds as if your work is useful and may be more comprehensive than 
what Mark has. Please create a JIRA issue with patches against the 
current codebase and we'll check it out.
cheers
-pete
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Mark Proctor | 2 Nov 2004 17:45

Re: [drools-dev] Schema

Roger,

As I have repeated many times before I was not aware of your xsd 
contributions. Once I became aware of your xsd contributions I reviewed 
them to see if they were applicable to be re-submitted to the tree as 
you were insistent on how much better they were;  as detailed previously 
(see email below) they would result in innapropriate warnings to the 
user due to missing drools modules so I am not willing to apply them - 
however I will be more than willing to place a prominent link from the 
docs site to your website as alternitve schema set.

With regards to you resolving the de-coupling issue, again you reported 
this AFTER Andy Barnett and myself commited working patches and as of 
yet have not given us anything to review. In the mean time I'm trying to 
get a beta out with something that works this week, I'm currently 
refactoring drools.io.RuleSetReader to make it easier for me to make the 
drl changes that I need to - imports, application data and functions 
(although the later two will not be in this beta) - I'm spending far to 
much time in this ongoing xsd dialogue.

I have always welcomed your contributions and asked they be submitted as 
patches, is that such a bad thing? Patches are the normal way of 
contributing work to an opensource project as the impact from the patch 
is easier to digest than from whole file(s).  I would love to see what 
you have with schematron, I know that the drools schemas can be improved 
and restrained further and I dont have the time to spend on this so your 
contributions would be very helpfull. So please work with us do a cvs 
checkout and submit a patch/jira/justification and lets get your work 
back in the tree.
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Roger F. Gay | 3 Nov 2004 15:15
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Re: [drools-dev] Schema


I also submitted DROOLS-62, which is reported as
linked to DROOLS-65 and I've asked for review of the
JIRA issue (65) that you've pointed to, but have not
recieved any concrete response. The old Schema set
that is referred to in that JIRA comment (65) has been
updated and distributed, but not put in CVS, and not
noted in JIRA.

I've also asked Bob to check on my JIRA access.
Apparently, I don't remember my account name or
password -- because I was unsuccessful when I tried to
log in -- maybe something to do with the new website
-- don't even know if my account is still active.

I currently live in a place in Sweden in which
internet access is very expensive, so I am using cyber
cafes for the moment. It is not practical for me to
set up for CVS upload and IRC access unless there are
some new tricks for doing so that I don't know about.

I've asked for help getting these tasks taken care of.

--- peter royal <peter.royal <at> pobox.com> wrote:

> On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:21 AM, Roger F. Gay wrote:
> > You're evading the questions. A complete schema
> set
> > has already been created and contributed. A second
> > effort, almost complete has been reported that
(Continue reading)

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