1 Apr 01:21 2009

### Re: Setting up Clojure on OS X


Hi Sean,

On Mar 30, 11:59 pm, Sean <francoisdev... <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> As an OSX nerd, my main problem is getting an editor up and running.  Maybe you could add
> a section on setting up an editor?

That's a good point. I use TextMate with the Clojure bundle. I'll add
a section with the appropriate links.

Regards,

Mark.
--
http://mark.reid.name

1 Apr 01:31 2009

### Re: Scala vs Clojure

but the InteliJ IDE isn't free, is it?

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 6:45 PM, Antony Blakey wrote:

On 28/03/2009, at 5:21 PM, Rayne wrote:

> I'd say Enclojure is close to

From my playing with it, plus the list of things not yet done, I
don't think this is true. The IntelliJ clojure support seems more
advanced right now, and I'm starting to use that in production. IMO
the new NetBeans 6.7 L&F on OSX now looks better than any other java
IDE on OSX (but enclojure doesn't run on it). If enclojure did
formatting and ran on 6.7 I'd probably choose that for Clojure
development, although another consideration is that if you want to do
mixed Scala/Clojure development, IntelliJ's Scala support has
considerably loftier goals than Eclipse/NetBeans e.g. first-class
support for the language model wrt refactoring etc.

Antony Blakey
--------------------------
Ph: 0438 840 787

Lack of will power has caused more failure than lack of intelligence
or ability.
-- Flower A. Newhouse

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1 Apr 01:36 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial

i may be in the minority in thinking that eventually (not as a priority, I understand) more and more of the useful stuff from Java should be wrapped ... even if it masks the documentation.  File IO was the last example that I suggested putting in the core.  This GUI question comes up so often, too, but it's a tougher call because it's hard to do without tying clojure to the jvm.  That said, If I NEVER have to use java calls directly, imagine how easy the port if/when clojure ever lives on top of some other vm.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Curran Kelleher wrote:

Glad to hear it is a usable tutorial!

It seems like lots of people coming to Clojure not coming from Java
are having difficulties with GUI coding. I think a big list of GUI
examples in Clojure would be the perfect remedy.

<at> Krešimir - I think blogger was down for a bit that day, the link
should be fine now
<at> Andrew - thanks for pointing out the mangled code, I fixed it

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1 Apr 01:37 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial

the port of user code, that is ... much harder for the port of clojure.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 7:36 PM, e wrote:
i may be in the minority in thinking that eventually (not as a priority, I understand) more and more of the useful stuff from Java should be wrapped ... even if it masks the documentation.  File IO was the last example that I suggested putting in the core.  This GUI question comes up so often, too, but it's a tougher call because it's hard to do without tying clojure to the jvm.  That said, If I NEVER have to use java calls directly, imagine how easy the port if/when clojure ever lives on top of some other vm.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Curran Kelleher wrote:

Glad to hear it is a usable tutorial!

It seems like lots of people coming to Clojure not coming from Java
are having difficulties with GUI coding. I think a big list of GUI
examples in Clojure would be the perfect remedy.

<at> Krešimir - I think blogger was down for a bit that day, the link
should be fine now
<at> Andrew - thanks for pointing out the mangled code, I fixed it

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1 Apr 01:45 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial

Yeah,

if there existed some set of functions/macros that could be used to specified user interface stuff at a "high level", while still allowing controlled way of adding GUI specifics at some points, the dream could become true.

I'd love to work on that, if time permitted.
But maybe such thing already exist in the Scheme/CommonLisp world, and could be used or be a source of inspiration ?

2009/4/1 e
i may be in the minority in thinking that eventually (not as a priority, I understand) more and more of the useful stuff from Java should be wrapped ... even if it masks the documentation.  File IO was the last example that I suggested putting in the core.  This GUI question comes up so often, too, but it's a tougher call because it's hard to do without tying clojure to the jvm.  That said, If I NEVER have to use java calls directly, imagine how easy the port if/when clojure ever lives on top of some other vm.

On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 5:18 PM, Curran Kelleher wrote:

Glad to hear it is a usable tutorial!

It seems like lots of people coming to Clojure not coming from Java
are having difficulties with GUI coding. I think a big list of GUI
examples in Clojure would be the perfect remedy.

<at> Krešimir - I think blogger was down for a bit that day, the link
should be fine now
<at> Andrew - thanks for pointing out the mangled code, I fixed it

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1 Apr 02:03 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial


(i know this note of mine probably really doesn't help, but)

> But maybe such thing already exist in the Scheme/CommonLisp world, and could
> be used or be a source of inspiration ?

i'm not totally sure what you have in mind, but the subject of "new
researchy approach to doing GUIs that is supposed to be better than
everything else before" is a depressingly common subject matter, i
think, given the actual approaches that ends up really being used most
often.

there's stuff like FRP in Haskell or PLT-Scheme.

there's stuff like JavaFX (or whatever it is called this week).

there's stuff like X-Windows but driven sanely by Erlang rather than C.

then there's all the stuff that never got used anywhere outside of academia.

etc.

sincerely.


1 Apr 02:17 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial

Yes, you're certainly right, but I'm only 35 old, and I don't want to yet let my dreams behind me, given that I will certainly (I hope so!) play at least 35 more years in this industry

I was thinking about an approach that would leverage the kind of separation one can find in the industry such as GUI stuff in one file, backend stuff in another, but maybe reconciled thanks to judicious use of higher order functions and conscienscious application of macros.

Something that can be thought of as "workable specs" for the GUI, where one does not have to switch language from one abstraction level to the other.

--
Laurent

2009/4/1 Raoul Duke

(i know this note of mine probably really doesn't help, but)

> But maybe such thing already exist in the Scheme/CommonLisp world, and could
> be used or be a source of inspiration ?

i'm not totally sure what you have in mind, but the subject of "new
researchy approach to doing GUIs that is supposed to be better than
everything else before" is a depressingly common subject matter, i
think, given the actual approaches that ends up really being used most
often.

there's stuff like FRP in Haskell or PLT-Scheme.

there's stuff like JavaFX (or whatever it is called this week).

there's stuff like X-Windows but driven sanely by Erlang rather than C.

then there's all the stuff that never got used anywhere outside of academia.

etc.

sincerely.

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1 Apr 02:25 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial


> Yes, you're certainly right, but I'm only 35 old, and I don't want to yet
> let my dreams behind me, given that I will certainly (I hope so!) play at
> least 35 more years in this industry

i'd say both:

a) that is good to hear, and i support such attitude! please go forth
and invent, because you might well do something insightful and helpful
to all. (let alone just have fun in the process.)

b) but! please don't forget to try to learn from what other people
have done, especially mistakes made, or long-term problems that arise.
which probably means: find somebody who really knows the breadth of
gui research. you'd hope there'd already be such a person on a list
like this?

sincerely.


1 Apr 02:33 2009

### Re: Fresh Clojure Tutorial


On 01/04/2009, at 10:47 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote:

> Something that can be thought of as "workable specs" for the GUI,
> where one does not have to switch language from one abstraction
> level to the other.

You should have a look at the Scala wrapping of SWT.

Antony Blakey
-------------
Ph: 0438 840 787

A Buddhist walks up to a hot-dog stand and says, "Make me one with
everything". He then pays the vendor and asks for change. The vendor
says, "Change comes from within".


1 Apr 02:34 2009

### Re: Scala vs Clojure


On 01/04/2009, at 10:01 AM, e wrote:

> but the InteliJ IDE isn't free, is it?

So what? I'm a professional developer. I make money using these tools.
The money people pay for IntelliJ is one reason that the Scala support
in IntelliJ is more ambitious and why the IntelliJ Clojure plugin is
more advanced. I'd happily pay for NetBeans or Eclipse, and/or support
for Clojure and Scala. I buy a lot of software, and when I use good O/
S software, I donate $to support it e.g. Firebug. IntelliJ is cheap for a personal license (USD$249). Even VisualWorks
Smalltalk, for which I pay 5% of my gross billings, is good deal
because the productivity benefits pay for themselves.

Antony Blakey
-------------