Michael Oliver | 1 Mar 2007 18:19

reinstatement

Hi,
 
I am a committer on the slide project and have been inactive for more than six months and access is denied.
 
I now have several commits to make and need to be reinstated, ollie <at> apache.org is my account.
 
Michael Oliver
Cell: 518-378-6154
Skype: MikeOliverAZ
Phone:702-866-9034
 
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Oleg Kalnichevski | 2 Mar 2007 10:50
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Favicon

Re: [VOTE] Accept not yet commons ssl project WAS : Re: [Vote] Where should "not-yet-commons-ssl" go?

On Fri, 2007-02-23 at 23:35 +0100, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> I prefer this vote to see where it should end up in Jakarta and based on that result the path full
> incubation / legal incubation is decided.
> 
> So in my view the vote should be :
> 
> [x] Jakarta should sponsor (which effectively states we like to see the code end up here)
> [ ] Jakarta shouldn't sponsor (which effectively means it will end up TLP)
> 
> if accepted in Jakarta, it should end up in :
> 
> [x] commons as a component
> [ ] httpcomponents as a component
> [ ] subproject directly under Jakarta
> [ ] integrate / merge code into project xxx (please replace x) (so not a subcomponent of a project!)
> 
> And
> 
> [ ] I am willing to mentor (you need to be on the Incubator PMC / Member of the ASF)
> [x] I want to get involved in coding
> [ ] No interest in getting involved.
> 

Oleg

> 
> Reasoning :
> 
> 1) the first decides if Jakarta wants to sponsor this
> 2) we need to know the place it should end up in Jakarta (at least have some kind of direction)
> 3) if no one is interested in getting involved or being a mentor (preferably 3 mentors!), we can
> easily see if option 1 and 2 are viable at all.
> 
> The problem with the current vote is that I have to start yet another vote to let us sponsor and
> where it should end up, best to do it in one go in my opninion...
> 
> So Martin and Ortwin could you please revote  ? (Sorry for the inconvenience)
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> Julius Davies wrote:
> > Hi, Jakarta-General,
> > 
> > Let's vote on where to put this code!  Here's the code right now:
> > 
> > http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/
> > 
> > Forgive my newbieness; I hope these are the right options:
> > 
> > [+1] Sub-module in Httpcomponents.
> > [+1] Sandbox.
> > [+1] Full Incubator.
> > [-1] "not-yet-commons-ssl" is not a good project for Apache because...
> > 
> > I'm fine with majority rules, assuming there are no "-1" votes.
> > 
> > Some background:
> > 
> > http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaBoardReport-February2007
> > 
> > "The code grant for the not yet commons SSL (formerly named
> > commons-ssl), has been completed, so we can progress to having a vote
> > where SSL should end up on general and based on that result take the
> > correct incubator path (legal / full incubation)."
> > 
> > Let's just get this vote out of the way, and then we can move on to
> > other issues in the appropriate venue (HttpComponents, or Sandbox, or
> > Incubator).
> > 
> > My original proposal to "jakarta-general" about the project is here:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/general <at> jakarta.apache.org/msg12790.html
> > 
> > Yesterday I released "not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7".  Changes described
> > at the bottom of this email.  My intention is for 0.3.7 to be the last
> > release outside of Apache.
> > 
> > 
> > By the way, there's one undocumented feature of common-ssl that's been
> > quite fun:
> > 
> > http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/javadocs/org/apache/commons/ssl/OpenSSL.html
> > 
> > 
> > :-)
> > 
> > 
> > yours,
> > 
> > Julius
> > 
> > ps.  My vote is:
> > 
> > [+0] - Abstaining because I'm too much of a newb to really understand
> > what I'm voting for.
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/23/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <olegk <at> apache.org> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:20 -0800, Julius Davies wrote:
> >> > not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7 released!
> >> >
> >> > http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/download.html
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Hi Julius,
> >>
> >> What are your plans regarding not-yet-commons-ssl? Is there anything
> >> still blocking the incubation process? There are already two Apache
> >> projects (HttpComponents and Synapse) that can potentially benefit from
> >> collaboration with not-yet-commons-ssl. So, there is a lot of interest
> >> in seeing things moving forward.
> >>
> >> Oleg
> >>
> >>
> > 
> > Features as of not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7:
> > 
> > 1. useStrongCiphers() used by default.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 40 bit and 56 bit ciphers are now disabled by default. To turn them
> > back on call useDefaultJavaCiphers().
> > 
> > 
> > 2. addAllowedName() adds some flexibility to the CN verification.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Here's a code example using "cucbc.com" to connect, but anticipating
> > "www.cucbc.com" in the server's certificate:
> > 
> >  SSLClient client = new SSLClient();
> >  client.addAllowedName( "www.cucbc.com" );
> >  Socket s = client.createSocket( "cucbc.com", 443 );
> > 
> > This technique is also useful if you don't want to use DNS, and want
> > to connect using the IP address.
> > 
> > 
> > 3. SSLServer can re-use a Tomcat-8443 private key if running from inside
> > Tomcat.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > SSLClient server = new SSLServer();
> > server.useTomcatSSLMaterial();
> > 
> > 
> > 4. RMI-SSL support improved.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Attempts to re-use the Tomcat-8443 private key for all RMI SSL Server
> > sockets. Anonymous server-sockets (port 0) will always be set to port
> > 31099. Analyzes the server certificate CN field and tries to set
> > "java.rmi.server.hostname" to something compatible with that. Probably
> > the only free implementation around that does a good job on the
> > hostname verification!
> > 
> > 
> > 5. KeyMaterial constructor blows up earlier.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > If a JKS or PKCS12 file is provided that isn't going to work (e.g. no
> > private keys), the KeyMaterial constructor throws an exception right
> > away.
> > 
> > 
> > 6. getSSLContext() now available to help inter-op with Java 5 SSL-NIO
> > libraries.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Oleg has been working hard on SSL-NIO for the Apache httpcomponents
> > library. Go check it out!
> > 
> > 
> > 7. Fixed bug where SSLClient couldn't be used with
> > javax.net.ssl.HttpsURLConnection on Java 1.4.x
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I was wrapping the SSLSocket, but Java 1.4.x guards against that
> > inside HttpsURLConnection and throws this exciting exception:
> > 
> > java.lang.RuntimeException: Export restriction: this JSSE
> > implementation is non-pluggable.
> > at
> > com.sun.net.ssl.internal.ssl.SSLSocketFactoryImpl.checkCreate(DashoA6275)
> > at sun.net.www.protocol.https.HttpsClient.afterConnect(DashoA6275)
> > at
> > sun.net.www.protocol.https.AbstractDelegateHttpsURLConnection.connect(DashoA6275)
> > 
> > at
> > sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getOutputStream(HttpURLConnection.java:560)
> > 
> > at
> > sun.net.www.protocol.https.HttpsURLConnectionImpl.getOutputStream(DashoA6275)
> > 
> > 
> > Silly Java - I'm still using your JSSE implementation, I'm just wrapping
> > it!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The KeyStoreBuilder command-line utility can go both ways now (to jks,
> > and to pkcs8 in PEM format).  So you can use it to convert a java
> > "keystore" file into an Apache-SSL compatible PEM file for your httpd
> > server!
> > 
> > http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/utilities.html
> > ============================================
> > $ java -cp commons-ssl-0.3.7.jar org.apache.commons.ssl.KeyStoreBuilder
> > KeyStoreBuilder:  outputs JKS file (java keystore) as ./[alias].jks
> > [alias] will be set to the first CN value of the X509 certificate.
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Usage1:  [password] [file:pkcs12]
> > Usage2:  [password] [file:private-key] [file:certificate-chain]
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > [private-key] can be openssl format, or pkcs8.
> > [password] decrypts [private-key], and also encrypts outputted JKS file.
> > All files can be PEM or DER.
> > ============================================
> > 
> > 
> 
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
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> 
> 
Martin van den Bemt | 3 Mar 2007 15:22

Re: reinstatement

What exactly is the problem ? You have karma on Jakarta so you should be able to commit...

Mvgr,
Martin

Michael Oliver wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I am a committer on the slide project and have been inactive for more
> than six months and access is denied.
>  
> I now have several commits to make and need to be reinstated,
> ollie <at> apache.org <mailto:ollie <at> apache.org> is my account.
>  
> Michael Oliver
> Cell: 518-378-6154
> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
> Phone:702-866-9034
>  
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org
Michael Oliver | 3 Mar 2007 16:10

RE: reinstatement

Perhaps then it is just password needing to be reset.

Michael Oliver
Cell: 518-378-6154
Skype: MikeOliverAZ
Phone:702-866-9034

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:mllist <at> mvdb.net] 
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:23 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: reinstatement

What exactly is the problem ? You have karma on Jakarta so you should be
able to commit...

Mvgr,
Martin

Michael Oliver wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I am a committer on the slide project and have been inactive for more 
> than six months and access is denied.
>  
> I now have several commits to make and need to be reinstated, 
> ollie <at> apache.org <mailto:ollie <at> apache.org> is my account.
>  
> Michael Oliver
> Cell: 518-378-6154
> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
> Phone:702-866-9034
>  
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org

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Martin van den Bemt | 3 Mar 2007 16:26

Re: reinstatement

Send a request to infrastructure or root at apache dot org to have that done.. ( I don't have karma
to do that)

Mvgr,
Martin

Michael Oliver wrote:
> Perhaps then it is just password needing to be reset.
> 
> 
> Michael Oliver
> Cell: 518-378-6154
> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
> Phone:702-866-9034
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:mllist <at> mvdb.net] 
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:23 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: reinstatement
> 
> What exactly is the problem ? You have karma on Jakarta so you should be
> able to commit...
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> Michael Oliver wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  
>> I am a committer on the slide project and have been inactive for more 
>> than six months and access is denied.
>>  
>> I now have several commits to make and need to be reinstated, 
>> ollie <at> apache.org <mailto:ollie <at> apache.org> is my account.
>>  
>> Michael Oliver
>> Cell: 518-378-6154
>> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
>> Phone:702-866-9034
>>  
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> --
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
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Michael Oliver | 3 Mar 2007 16:31

RE: reinstatement

 thanks

Michael Oliver
Cell: 518-378-6154
Skype: MikeOliverAZ
Phone:702-866-9034

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:mllist <at> mvdb.net] 
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 7:27 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: reinstatement

Send a request to infrastructure or root at apache dot org to have that
done.. ( I don't have karma to do that)

Mvgr,
Martin

Michael Oliver wrote:
> Perhaps then it is just password needing to be reset.
> 
> 
> Michael Oliver
> Cell: 518-378-6154
> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
> Phone:702-866-9034
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Martin van den Bemt [mailto:mllist <at> mvdb.net]
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 6:23 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: reinstatement
> 
> What exactly is the problem ? You have karma on Jakarta so you should 
> be able to commit...
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> Michael Oliver wrote:
>> Hi,
>>  
>> I am a committer on the slide project and have been inactive for more 
>> than six months and access is denied.
>>  
>> I now have several commits to make and need to be reinstated, 
>> ollie <at> apache.org <mailto:ollie <at> apache.org> is my account.
>>  
>> Michael Oliver
>> Cell: 518-378-6154
>> Skype: MikeOliverAZ
>> Phone:702-866-9034
>>  
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> --
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscribe <at> jakarta.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> For additional commands, e-mail: general-help <at> jakarta.apache.org

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Martin van den Bemt | 3 Mar 2007 21:20

[PROPOSAL] Create dev <at> jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..

Hi everyone,

For various reasons there are a couple of projects at Jakarta that currently don't have any
development community. I like these projects to have dev discussion move to dev <at> jakarta.apache.org,
so it is easier for us to give oversight and guide newbies to learn the Apache way.
The initial projects I have in mind are : oro, regexp and ecs (others are welcome too btw).

This idea sparked from 1) my thread about reviving inactive projects 2) the thread on ecs-user on
who is still using ECS and looking at the content it could very well be that some people will start
sending patches in the near future.

The strength of this list should be is that with a lot of hands the chance that nothing happens when
there is activity is minimized. If someone has an hour to spare, it could very well be useful to
apply a patch and mentor people.

I would kind of expect that every PMC member is also subscribed to this list (in the same way it is
kind of expected that you are subscribed to general), but as always cannot force anyone ;)

Since I don't like to extend the scope of the general list, I prefer dev discussion not to take
place there.

Thoughts ?

Mvgr,
Martin
Martin van den Bemt | 3 Mar 2007 22:09

[vote][conclusion] Re: [Vote] Where should "not-yet-commons-ssl" go?

Not a vote result, since it is just a conclusion from my side.

<Jakarta hat on>
Even though there are enough +1's to start sponsoring ssl, I think I want to see a lot more support
than what I currently see (I mean active support). So at this stage I don't think it is wise that
Jakarta should sponsor this project. Let's see where incubation takes ssl, without being destined
for Jakarta and only decide if ssl requests to be part of Jakarta when it wants to or is ready to
when it's time to leave the incubator.
</Jakarta hat on>

<Personal hat on>
Since there are more (Apache) projects interested in ssl, I think however we can get enough people
on board to do a successful incubation, so I offered to Julius to help him out with incubation as
the sponsor and the mentor.
</Personal hat on>

If you strongly disagree with my conclusion, please step up to get actively involved, if not I will
start working with Julius on a personal basis to get this baby going.

Mvgr,
Martin

Julius Davies wrote:
> Hi, Jakarta-General,
> 
> Let's vote on where to put this code!  Here's the code right now:
> 
> http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/
> 
> Forgive my newbieness; I hope these are the right options:
> 
> [+1] Sub-module in Httpcomponents.
> [+1] Sandbox.
> [+1] Full Incubator.
> [-1] "not-yet-commons-ssl" is not a good project for Apache because...
> 
> I'm fine with majority rules, assuming there are no "-1" votes.
> 
> Some background:
> 
> http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaBoardReport-February2007
> 
> "The code grant for the not yet commons SSL (formerly named
> commons-ssl), has been completed, so we can progress to having a vote
> where SSL should end up on general and based on that result take the
> correct incubator path (legal / full incubation)."
> 
> Let's just get this vote out of the way, and then we can move on to
> other issues in the appropriate venue (HttpComponents, or Sandbox, or
> Incubator).
> 
> My original proposal to "jakarta-general" about the project is here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/general <at> jakarta.apache.org/msg12790.html
> 
> Yesterday I released "not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7".  Changes described
> at the bottom of this email.  My intention is for 0.3.7 to be the last
> release outside of Apache.
> 
> 
> By the way, there's one undocumented feature of common-ssl that's been
> quite fun:
> 
> http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/javadocs/org/apache/commons/ssl/OpenSSL.html
> 
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> yours,
> 
> Julius
> 
> ps.  My vote is:
> 
> [+0] - Abstaining because I'm too much of a newb to really understand
> what I'm voting for.
> 
> 
> On 2/23/07, Oleg Kalnichevski <olegk <at> apache.org> wrote:
>> On Thu, 2007-02-22 at 10:20 -0800, Julius Davies wrote:
>> > not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7 released!
>> >
>> > http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/download.html
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Hi Julius,
>>
>> What are your plans regarding not-yet-commons-ssl? Is there anything
>> still blocking the incubation process? There are already two Apache
>> projects (HttpComponents and Synapse) that can potentially benefit from
>> collaboration with not-yet-commons-ssl. So, there is a lot of interest
>> in seeing things moving forward.
>>
>> Oleg
>>
>>
> 
> Features as of not-yet-commons-ssl-0.3.7:
> 
> 1. useStrongCiphers() used by default.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 40 bit and 56 bit ciphers are now disabled by default. To turn them
> back on call useDefaultJavaCiphers().
> 
> 
> 2. addAllowedName() adds some flexibility to the CN verification.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Here's a code example using "cucbc.com" to connect, but anticipating
> "www.cucbc.com" in the server's certificate:
> 
>  SSLClient client = new SSLClient();
>  client.addAllowedName( "www.cucbc.com" );
>  Socket s = client.createSocket( "cucbc.com", 443 );
> 
> This technique is also useful if you don't want to use DNS, and want
> to connect using the IP address.
> 
> 
> 3. SSLServer can re-use a Tomcat-8443 private key if running from inside
> Tomcat.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> SSLClient server = new SSLServer();
> server.useTomcatSSLMaterial();
> 
> 
> 4. RMI-SSL support improved.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Attempts to re-use the Tomcat-8443 private key for all RMI SSL Server
> sockets. Anonymous server-sockets (port 0) will always be set to port
> 31099. Analyzes the server certificate CN field and tries to set
> "java.rmi.server.hostname" to something compatible with that. Probably
> the only free implementation around that does a good job on the
> hostname verification!
> 
> 
> 5. KeyMaterial constructor blows up earlier.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> If a JKS or PKCS12 file is provided that isn't going to work (e.g. no
> private keys), the KeyMaterial constructor throws an exception right
> away.
> 
> 
> 6. getSSLContext() now available to help inter-op with Java 5 SSL-NIO
> libraries.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Oleg has been working hard on SSL-NIO for the Apache httpcomponents
> library. Go check it out!
> 
> 
> 7. Fixed bug where SSLClient couldn't be used with
> javax.net.ssl.HttpsURLConnection on Java 1.4.x
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I was wrapping the SSLSocket, but Java 1.4.x guards against that
> inside HttpsURLConnection and throws this exciting exception:
> 
> java.lang.RuntimeException: Export restriction: this JSSE
> implementation is non-pluggable.
> at
> com.sun.net.ssl.internal.ssl.SSLSocketFactoryImpl.checkCreate(DashoA6275)
> at sun.net.www.protocol.https.HttpsClient.afterConnect(DashoA6275)
> at
> sun.net.www.protocol.https.AbstractDelegateHttpsURLConnection.connect(DashoA6275)
> 
> at
> sun.net.www.protocol.http.HttpURLConnection.getOutputStream(HttpURLConnection.java:560)
> 
> at
> sun.net.www.protocol.https.HttpsURLConnectionImpl.getOutputStream(DashoA6275)
> 
> 
> Silly Java - I'm still using your JSSE implementation, I'm just wrapping
> it!
> 
> 
> 
> The KeyStoreBuilder command-line utility can go both ways now (to jks,
> and to pkcs8 in PEM format).  So you can use it to convert a java
> "keystore" file into an Apache-SSL compatible PEM file for your httpd
> server!
> 
> http://juliusdavies.ca/commons-ssl/utilities.html
> ============================================
> $ java -cp commons-ssl-0.3.7.jar org.apache.commons.ssl.KeyStoreBuilder
> KeyStoreBuilder:  outputs JKS file (java keystore) as ./[alias].jks
> [alias] will be set to the first CN value of the X509 certificate.
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> Usage1:  [password] [file:pkcs12]
> Usage2:  [password] [file:private-key] [file:certificate-chain]
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> [private-key] can be openssl format, or pkcs8.
> [password] decrypts [private-key], and also encrypts outputted JKS file.
> All files can be PEM or DER.
> ============================================
> 
> 
Martin van den Bemt | 3 Mar 2007 22:25

Re: [vote][conclusion] Re: [Vote] Where should "not-yet-commons-ssl" go?


Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Not a vote result, since it is just a conclusion from my side.
> 
> 
> <Personal hat on>
> Since there are more (Apache) projects interested in ssl, I think however we can get enough people
> on board to do a successful incubation, so I offered to Julius to help him out with incubation as
> the sponsor and the mentor.
> </Personal hat on>

Correction : the sponsor will be the incubator PMC in this scenario.

Mvgr,
Martin
Daniel F. Savarese | 3 Mar 2007 23:08
Favicon

Re: [PROPOSAL] Create dev <at> jakarta.apache.org mailinglist..


In message <45E9D873.5000705 <at> mvdb.net>, Martin van den Bemt writes:
>The strength of this list should be is that with a lot of hands the chance tha
>t nothing happens when
>there is activity is minimized. If someone has an hour to spare, it could very
> well be useful to
>apply a patch and mentor people.

Vadim has regexp covered and I have oro covered as far as maintenance
requests go, but no, I don't think either project merits its own
separate -dev and -user lists anymore.  The trick is getting users who
want new features (as opposed to maintenance like bug fixing) to contribute
new features instead of always expecting the maintainers to add them
(e.g., Commons Net has been pretty successful in attracting user
contributed features).  But regexp and oro are special cases which will
likely see no new features in the future, having been rendered obsolete
by standardization of the functionality they provide in the Java core api.

>Since I don't like to extend the scope of the general list, I prefer dev discu
>ssion not to take
>place there.
>
>Thoughts ?

As long as user traffic can go to general, it sounds okay.  Most, if not all,
activity will be triggered by users (who won't be subscribed to dev), so
I'd think at least some threads should be permitted to start on general
and then migrate to dev if there is follow-on development related discussion.

daniel

Gmane