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Jochen Roderburg | 1 Oct 2010 09:50
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Zitat von Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org>:

> Stationery are a good point and we might consider changing to the  
> other camp with stationery being available in both IMP and DIMP now.  
> OTOH there is still the use case where I want to write some  
> mail-merge-like message, sending the same message a few times to  
> different recipients with slightly different content, like different  
> titles. I really don't want to go to the preferences and create  
> stationery just for that.

Yes, exactly, this is what I mainly use the "draft" feature for. And  
was very puzzled now that after the first re-usage my message had  
disappeared.

Pardon my ignorance (or insufficient knowledge of english): what is  
"stationery"?
Wikipedia and Leo are not of much help, show nothing computer-related.  ;-)

Best regards,
Jochen Roderburg

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Ronan SALMON | 1 Oct 2010 10:37

Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org> a écrit :
>> Zitat von Michael M Slusarz <slusarz <at> horde.org>:
>   >
>   >> Quoting Jochen Roderburg <Roderburg <at> Uni-Koeln.DE>:
>   >>
>   >>> Another issue upon which I stumbled again when I made my tests for
>   >>> the cache problem:
>   >>>
>   >>> The IMP behaviour regarding "drafts" that I know from IMP3 is:
>   >>> I can click on a draft in the drafts folder, get it in a compose
>   >>> screen, can continue working on it and send it. After this the
>   >>> draft is still stored in the folder for future use.
>   >>>
>   >>> In the traditional Interface of IMP4 this works the same, but in
>   >>> DIMP the stored draft is unconditionally deleted after sending. No
>   >>> question, no warning, nothing, it is just gone.
>   >>>
>   >>> Bug or new future, configuration or what?
>   >>>
>   >>> This is certainly not the expected and wanted behaviour!!
>   >>
>   >> Yes it is.  A draft is, by definition (RFC 3501 [2.3.2]), a "[m]essage
>   >> [that] has not completed composition."  Thus, the natural extension is
>   >> that once the message HAS completed composition, it is no longer
>   >> needed.  This is no different than any other message you compose - once
>   >> you hit send, you have no access to the content of that message anymore.
>   >>
>   >> If that message wasn't deleted, eventually your Drafts folder would
>   >> contain hundreds of old drafts.  That is obviously not very useful
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Ronan SALMON | 1 Oct 2010 11:38

Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org> a écrit :
> Zitat von Michael M Slusarz <slusarz <at> horde.org>:
>
>> Quoting Jochen Roderburg <Roderburg <at> Uni-Koeln.DE>:
>>
>>> Another issue upon which I stumbled again when I made my tests for  
>>> the cache problem:
>>>
>>> The IMP behaviour regarding "drafts" that I know from IMP3 is:
>>> I can click on a draft in the drafts folder, get it in a compose  
>>> screen, can continue working on it and send it. After this the  
>>> draft is still stored in the folder for future use.
>>>
>>> In the traditional Interface of IMP4 this works the same, but in  
>>> DIMP the stored draft is unconditionally deleted after sending. No  
>>> question, no warning, nothing, it is just gone.
>>>
>>> Bug or new future, configuration or what?
>>>
>>> This is certainly not the expected and wanted behaviour!!
>>
>> Yes it is.  A draft is, by definition (RFC 3501 [2.3.2]), a "[m]essage
>> [that] has not completed composition."  Thus, the natural extension is
>> that once the message HAS completed composition, it is no longer
>> needed.  This is no different than any other message you compose - once
>> you hit send, you have no access to the content of that message anymore.
>>
>> If that message wasn't deleted, eventually your Drafts folder would
>> contain hundreds of old drafts.  That is obviously not very useful.
>>
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Jan Schneider | 1 Oct 2010 12:05
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Stationery is templates or form replies. I think the official translation is "Briefpapier" though in this
context rather "Vorlagen" or "Standardantworten".

"Jochen Roderburg" <Roderburg <at> uni-koeln.de> schrieb:

>Zitat von Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org>:
>
>> Stationery are a good point and we might consider changing to the  
>> other camp with stationery being available in both IMP and DIMP now. 
>
>> OTOH there is still the use case where I want to write some  
>> mail-merge-like message, sending the same message a few times to  
>> different recipients with slightly different content, like different 
>
>> titles. I really don't want to go to the preferences and create  
>> stationery just for that.
>
>Yes, exactly, this is what I mainly use the "draft" feature for. And  
>was very puzzled now that after the first re-usage my message had  
>disappeared.
>
>Pardon my ignorance (or insufficient knowledge of english): what is  
>"stationery"?
>Wikipedia and Leo are not of much help, show nothing computer-related. 
>;-)
>
>Best regards,
>Jochen Roderburg

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Michael M Slusarz | 1 Oct 2010 21:20
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Quoting Ronan SALMON <rsalmon <at> mbpgroup.com>:

> I agree with Jan and Jochen. IMP/DIMP should honor IMP's  
> auto_delete_drafts pref.

There is no auto_delete_drafts pref in IMP 4.  auto_delete_drafts pref  
was recently removed from IMP 5, but it wasn't being used anywhere.

michael

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Michael M Slusarz | 1 Oct 2010 21:37
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Quoting Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org>:

> IMP has always been in the latter camp, and we shouldn't silently  
> change this. I always had the impression that DIMP distinguishes  
> between auto-saved drafts that are going to be deleted and manually  
> saved draft that should stick. That would have been the ideal  
> approach anyway.

IIRC, it was my conversations with Timo (dovecot) around the time I  
was planning the new IMAP client library that was illuminating.  The  
idea being certain IMAP flags are not meant to ever be  
viewable/changeable by a user from a UI standpoint.  This is why a  
user can not explicitly set the Forwarded, Answered, and Draft flags  
anymore - these flags are reserved for certain behaviors only.

When you are composing a message, drafts is intended exclusively for  
being able to "save" a message to finish it later.  Once finished, it  
is no longer needed.  It is not designed to be used as a templating  
system.  We now have stationery for this (see below).

I realize that in the past using Drafts may have been the only way to  
do this kind of templating (depending on the version of IMP used, or  
the IMP view used), but that is no longer the case.  I think it is  
entirely appropriate to focus/tighten-up this kind of Drafts usage  
when we have other systems in place that allow a user to perform the  
previous functions.

As an example, the Flagged for Followup is *not* a permanent flag.  It  
is designed to be a one-time-only indication that a message needs to  
be dealt with.  Once the message is replied/forwarded, the flag is
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Michael M Slusarz | 1 Oct 2010 21:46
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Quoting Michael M Slusarz <slusarz <at> horde.org>:

> Quoting Jan Schneider <jan <at> horde.org>:
>
>> Stationery are a good point and we might consider changing to the  
>> other camp with stationery being available in both IMP and DIMP now.
>
> Agreed.  Or else, what is the purpose of stationery?

That being said, stationery *isn't* available in dimp.  So I need to add that.

michael

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Andre Gerhard | 1 Oct 2010 22:11
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IMP 4.3.8 problem - Tree.php


Hi,

I have "INBOX." as namespace. When using IMP 4.3.8, if the user has no folders
when he tries to login nothing is shown; this error appears in the log:

PHP Fatal error:  Unsupported operand types in /usr/local/www/imp4.3.8/horde/imp/lib/IMAP/Tree.php
on line 333

If the user has a folder (for example, .Trash or any other folder) the problem
doesn't occurs, also with IMP 4.3.6 it works ok.

Regards,
Andre Gerhard

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Michael M Slusarz | 2 Oct 2010 00:37
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Re: IMP 4.3.8 problem - Tree.php

Quoting Andre Gerhard <agerhard <at> usp.br>:

> Hi,
>
> I have "INBOX." as namespace. When using IMP 4.3.8, if the user has  
> no folders
> when he tries to login nothing is shown; this error appears in the log:
>
> PHP Fatal error:  Unsupported operand types in  
> /usr/local/www/imp4.3.8/horde/imp/lib/IMAP/Tree.php on line 333
>
> If the user has a folder (for example, .Trash or any other folder)  
> the problem
> doesn't occurs, also with IMP 4.3.6 it works ok.

http://bugs.horde.org/ticket/9273

michael

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Jan Schneider | 2 Oct 2010 16:37
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Re: Unexpected deletion of drafts in DIMP

Zitat von Michael M Slusarz <slusarz <at> horde.org>:

> This is a UI issue.  This is still a use for stationery - it just  
> needs to be easier to create stationery if necessary.  We could also  
> add an option (I think Thunderbird has this option) to create a mail  
> message from the contents of any existing message.

There already is the resume feature, isn't it?

Jan.

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