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Steven Marzuola | 8 Nov 2004 03:41
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(1) Greetings; (2) UK-German (3) US-International-Dvorak


Greetings.  I came across this group today while looking into the 
following situations.

In another Yahoo group focusing on computer problems of interest to 
translators, a group of us in the USA recommended and defended our 
use of the US keyboard along with the US International keyboard 
layout (in Windows).  However, during the discussion the following 
questions came up.

1.  One reader is in the UK but regularly works in German.  I'm not 
sure what method he uses for German characters, but he sounded very 
interested in the US International layout.  Unfortunately, some of 
the characters available in that layout conflict with the arrangement 
of the keys on a UK keyboard.

I don't know why he doesn't use a German keyboard, it would seem that 
it would do the job nicely.  But anyway: 

Does anybody have any suggestions about a layout that would work for 
this user?  It would have the convenience of the US International 
layout (German characters easily available) but intended for a UK 
keyboard.

2.  Somebody else brought up the Dvorak keyboard layout during the 
discussion.  I used it a few years ago, and for a couple of reasons 
now is a good time to try it again.  My problem is that I often type 
in Spanish, and so I need these characters: áéíóúñ, and ¿¡ to go 
with ?!.
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P Scott Horne | 8 Nov 2004 04:30
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RE: (1) Greetings; (2) UK-German (3) US-International-Dvorak


	1.  One reader is in the UK but regularly works in German.  I'm not 
	sure what method he uses for German characters, but he sounded very 
	interested in the US International layout.  Unfortunately, some of 
	the characters available in that layout conflict with the
arrangement 
	of the keys on a UK keyboard. 
	 
Which ones, specifically?  The US and UK QWERTY layouts are quite similar.
	
	I don't know why he doesn't use a German keyboard, it would seem
that 
	it would do the job nicely.

Y and Z are interchanged on a German (QWERTZ) keyboard.
	
	Unfortunately, support for all those languages comes at a small 
	price; mainly, the ñ and Ñ are less convenient and the ' and - keys 
	are reversed (the former removed from the home row).

I am the developer of that layout.  It is true that it is not ideal for
people working primarily in English and Spanish or any other pair of
languages.  My intention was to produce a Dvorak keyboard for those of us
who use numerous languages.  (A QWERTY version is also available, for the
dactylographically retrograde.)  Some 700 characters can be typed with
relative ease.

If I were to alter the keyboard for Spanish, I would create a separate key
for  ñ/Ñ  and place  ¡¿ªº  in more convenient places.  For German, I would
definitely create keys for  ÄÖÜß,  and I might find better locations for the
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Ulf Bro | 8 Nov 2004 06:51
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How to make a German and an International Dvorak


Hello,

> I don't know why he doesn't use a German keyboard, it would seem that
> it would do the job nicely.  But anyway:
>
> Does anybody have any suggestions about a layout that would work for
> this user?  It would have the convenience of the US International
> layout (German characters easily available) but intended for a UK
> keyboard.

It is probably a matter of taste.

> 2.  Somebody else brought up the Dvorak keyboard layout during the
> discussion.  I used it a few years ago, and for a couple of reasons
> now is a good time to try it again.  My problem is that I often type
> in Spanish, and so I need these characters: áéíóúñ, and ¿¡ to go
> with ?!.
>
> The US Dvorak keyboard doesn't help with the non-English characters.
> I found a driver that adds a "Latin International Dvorak".  It's
> intended for all languages that use the Latin alphabet, and includes
> support for a very large number of languages.
>
> http://www.hornetranslations.com/keyboardsenca.shtml
>
> Unfortunately, support for all those languages comes at a small
> price; mainly, the ñ and Ñ are less convenient and the ' and - keys
> are reversed (the former removed from the home row).
>
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P Scott Horne | 8 Nov 2004 07:05
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RE: How to make a German and an International Dvorak


	Even if I am a European of flesh and blood and do read and write German, 
	Spanish, Danish and Swedish I use a different Dvorak for each. I absolutely 
	don't want to sit there all the time and press Alt-Gr keys.

You don't have to.  Simply use some of the existing keys as dead keys.  My keyboard uses the five keys nearest
the backspace as dead keys.  I seldom need to use AltGr.

Scott Horne
www.hornetranslations.com/keyboardsenca.shtml

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Marc Amans | 8 Nov 2004 09:13
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Re: (1) Greetings; (2) UK-German (3) US-International-Dvorak


Steven Marzuola wrote:

>What I guess I would like is a "US-International-Dvorak" layout, that 
>is closer to the "US-International" layout from Microsoft.  Any 
>suggestions?
>
>I want to avoid the ".NET" framework from Microsoft.  I'm not a 
>regular Bill-Gates basher, but I don't see any need for that piece of 
>software.
>  
>
AFAIK, you need the .NET frameworf for creating a keyboard driver using 
Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator, but you don't need it to use it.

So if you really distrust Microsoft, you could create the keyboard 
driver on an old computer for example and use it on your main computer.

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Ulf Bro | 8 Nov 2004 09:09
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Re: How to make a German and an International Dvorak


> You don't have to.  Simply use some of the existing keys as dead keys.  My
> keyboard uses the five keys nearest the backspace as dead keys.  I seldom
> need to use AltGr.

Since I work wich Linux things aren't so simple. You can't (so far as I know) 
program a key to be "dead acute accent" when pressed once, but "bracket left" 
if pressed twice. With a Windows driver this is possible.

So far I have only considered solutions which were possible for Linux and 
Windows as well. But you are of course right. One can make very attractive 
solutions in that manner.

Ulf

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P Scott Horne | 8 Nov 2004 09:16
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RE: (1) Greetings; (2) UK-German (3) US-International-Dvorak


That's right. Drivers produced with the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator
can be installed on any recent version of Windows.

Scott Horne
Horne Translations
www.hornetranslations.com/keyboardsenca.shtml

  _____  

AFAIK, you need the .NET frameworf for creating a keyboard driver using 
Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator, but you don't need it to use it.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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P Scott Horne | 8 Nov 2004 09:24
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RE: How to make a German and an International Dvorak


How about "acute accent plus space yields left bracket"? Is that possible under Linux?

I don't blame you for creating special layouts for Danish and German. You really want to have keys dedicated
to ÄÖÜßÆØÅ if you type primarily in those languages, but there aren't enough keys to spare on the keyboard.

Scott Horne
Horne Translations
www.hornetranslations.com/keyboardsenca.shtml

  _____  

From: Ulf Bro [mailto:bro <at> urufu.de] 
Sent: 8 novembre 2004 03:10
To: altkeyboards <at> yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [altkeyboards] How to make a German and an International Dvorak

> You don't have to.  Simply use some of the existing keys as dead keys.  My
> keyboard uses the five keys nearest the backspace as dead keys.  I seldom
> need to use AltGr.

Since I work wich Linux things aren't so simple. You can't (so far as I know) 
program a key to be "dead acute accent" when pressed once, but "bracket left" 
if pressed twice. With a Windows driver this is possible.

So far I have only considered solutions which were possible for Linux and 
Windows as well. But you are of course right. One can make very attractive 
solutions in that manner.

Ulf
(Continue reading)

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Cristian Conitzer | 8 Nov 2004 12:24
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German Dvorak, Methods Re: (1) Greetings; (2) UK-German (3) US-International-Dvorak


Hallo Steven, Scott, Ulf and all others,

I hope you have not overseen the German Dvorak Layout i made for exactly
this purpose. German and Spanish Layout. (i live in germany and i come
from southamerica).
This fact is not mentioned in this discussion.  This layout has
unfortunately no ¿ since it is used rarely in German and Alt+0191 is
easy to remember, but sure, if needed you can add this to some
convenient place.

How..
i tried the microsoft keyboard layout destroyer ;) but i did
definitevily not like it.
i use Keyboard Layout Manager Pro. (i payed for it, so if you want some
changes, do not hesitate)
For win9x it is posible to use janko keyboard generator.
and Zardo showed me a posibility to change directly the dll, editing
them..

Look at
http://www.stud.uni-hamburg.de/users/conitzer/dvorak/type-II.html

behind the -_ key is with dead ~ an ñ 

i am typing now for years and absolutely happy.

the other letter á áó .. are realised with the Strg and the / key.. easy
because reachable with both hands..
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Ulf Bro | 8 Nov 2004 13:43
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Re: How to make a German and an International Dvorak


> How about "acute accent plus space yields left bracket"? Is that possible
> under Linux?
>
As to my knowledge, I fear this is indeed not possible. I do however only work 
with the .Xmodmap method of reprogramming the keyboard. There is a newer 
method which I haven't cared to learn (xkb). This is actually the way to go 
for new keyboard developers because it enables you to choose keyboards in a 
graphical manner (at least for those who use KDE). On the other hand, the 
.Xmodmap method is very simple and it does its job.

Ulf

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Gmane