I'm also experiencing a big slowdown ever since moving to a Treo 700p. I did upgrade to
4.3.14 but it didn't help. I don't link my ShadowPlan data to any other apps on my
handheld, so it's not an issue with inter-app linking. Things that are slow include a wide
range of functions:
- opening the app is noticably slower than it was and slower than other apps
- tapping the up/down arrow icons to move list items lags *painfully*
- double tapping a list item doesn't always work to open the item. I takes a few times
while watching the visual feedback to get the double tap to work
- scrolling with the five way control is slow, especially after clicking it four or five times in
quick succession
- pressing the Treo menu button takes a second before the menus are raised. If I press
Menu-S to sort the list, it often starts creating a new item from the "s" keystroke, then the
menu bar appears over top of it.

The last one is interesting and makes me think the problem is at a low level.

Jeff: Congrats on the addition!

Joe Jackson.

--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "Griff" <lists <at> ...> wrote:
>
> I'm sorry if this has already been addressed...but just to confirm. Have
> you tried using the latest beta? I have no reason to believe the speed
> issue has been fixed but think it's worth a shot.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com [mailto:shadow-
> > discuss <at> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Latham
> >
> > Exact list eh? ... ok.
> >
> > (1) Opening a list, any list small or large. (not drastic)
> >
> > This does not seem to be related to the file load, maybe file open or
> > something, because the time to load for extremely short file is about
> > 1 second (used to be almost instantaneous), the wait for a large file,
> > about 1-2 seconds. There is a delay before the loading bar shows up,
> > but it only stays there for a flash. This last comment is why I think
> > its just in the file open (or find) and not the load itself.
> >
> > (2) moving the highlight inside a file with the nav button. (really
> > annoying)
> >
> > This takes almost a full second. Try to move down 6 items and you get
> > a distinct "type-ahead" effect. Expanding and collapsing seems to be
> > just slightly slower as well.
> >
> > Treo 700p (Garnet 5.4.9), Shadow 4.3.1
> >
> > --- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "Griff" <lists <at> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A better description of what speed issues you are having would be
> > helpful.
> > > Are you talking about EVERYTHING being slow even just entering a new
> > item in
> > > a list? Or are you talking about linking, or accessing linked
> > items? Are
> > > you talk list load time? If so, do you have a lot of linked items
> > within
> > > the list and to where do they link.
> > >
> > > Shadow does so much that it'll surely help Jeff to know what speed
> > issues
> > > you are seeing. Not to mention he may already be aware of some
> > issues (i.e.
> > > linking to the address book is known to be slow and a fix is in
> > testing).
> > >
> > > Griff
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Jeff,
> > > > Is a speed fix available for the Treo 700p? Shadow plan is really slow
> > > > on this device. It is almost un-usable for me.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Geoff
> > >
>

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Thanks :)

This seems very interesting: "pressing the Treo menu button takes
a second before the menus are raised."

Do you mean to say that just hitting the menu button, so the
pull-down menus appear on the screen, is slow?

That screams "they messed with the OS in some subtle but horrible
way", since thats nothing to do with Shadow, but evidently we're tripping
it up.

Can you confirm? If so, I'll go ask other devs .. *sigh* I hate
Palm's forever buggering things up :)

jeff

On Wed, 4 Apr 2007, jacksoncmuedu wrote:

# I'm also experiencing a big slowdown ever since moving to a Treo 700p. I did upgrade to
# 4.3.14 but it didn't help. I don't link my ShadowPlan data to any other apps on my
# handheld, so it's not an issue with inter-app linking. Things that are slow include a wide
# range of functions:
# - opening the app is noticably slower than it was and slower than other apps
# - tapping the up/down arrow icons to move list items lags *painfully*
# - double tapping a list item doesn't always work to open the item. I takes a few times
# while watching the visual feedback to get the double tap to work
# - scrolling with the five way control is slow, especially after clicking it four or five times in
# quick succession
# - pressing the Treo menu button takes a second before the menus are raised. If I press
# Menu-S to sort the list, it often starts creating a new item from the "s" keystroke, then the
# menu bar appears over top of it.
#
# The last one is interesting and makes me think the problem is at a low level.
#
# Jeff: Congrats on the addition!
#
# Joe Jackson.
#
# --- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "Griff" <lists <at> ...> wrote:
# >
# > I'm sorry if this has already been addressed...but just to confirm. Have
# > you tried using the latest beta? I have no reason to believe the speed
# > issue has been fixed but think it's worth a shot.
# >
# > > -----Original Message-----
# > > From: shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com [mailto:shadow-
# > > discuss <at> yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ken Latham
# > >
# > > Exact list eh? ... ok.
# > >
# > > (1) Opening a list, any list small or large. (not drastic)
# > >
# > > This does not seem to be related to the file load, maybe file open or
# > > something, because the time to load for extremely short file is about
# > > 1 second (used to be almost instantaneous), the wait for a large file,
# > > about 1-2 seconds. There is a delay before the loading bar shows up,
# > > but it only stays there for a flash. This last comment is why I think
# > > its just in the file open (or find) and not the load itself.
# > >
# > > (2) moving the highlight inside a file with the nav button. (really
# > > annoying)
# > >
# > > This takes almost a full second. Try to move down 6 items and you get
# > > a distinct "type-ahead" effect. Expanding and collapsing seems to be
# > > just slightly slower as well.
# > >
# > > Treo 700p (Garnet 5.4.9), Shadow 4.3.1
# > >
# > > --- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "Griff" <lists <at> > wrote:
# > > >
# > > > A better description of what speed issues you are having would be
# > > helpful.
# > > > Are you talking about EVERYTHING being slow even just entering a new
# > > item in
# > > > a list? Or are you talking about linking, or accessing linked
# > > items? Are
# > > > you talk list load time? If so, do you have a lot of linked items
# > > within
# > > > the list and to where do they link.
# > > >
# > > > Shadow does so much that it'll surely help Jeff to know what speed
# > > issues
# > > > you are seeing. Not to mention he may already be aware of some
# > > issues (i.e.
# > > > linking to the address book is known to be slow and a fix is in
# > > testing).
# > > >
# > > > Griff
# > > >
# > > > >
# > > > > Jeff,
# > > > > Is a speed fix available for the Treo 700p? Shadow plan is really slow
# > > > > on this device. It is almost un-usable for me.
# > > > >
# > > > > Thanks,
# > > > > Geoff
# > > >
# >
#
#
#
#
#
# Yahoo! Groups Links
#
#
#
#
#

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Hi--

Having used Shadow for awhile now, I'm realizing that what I'd really
like is just to have one big list of items/things to do, rather than
separating them into separate files. I just want to see them all, in
an Everything list (kind of like a shopping list with sub-bullets),
rather than having to navigate through each of the separate lists I
set up. Then later mark each of those things with a
category/label/whatever so I can sort/call-out if necessary.

Is there an easy way to do that? I'm thinking I'd like to figure out
the Everything list before I figure out
filters/tags/categories/whatever, which are things I've looked at but
don't think are useful right now.

Thanks much--

Lise

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Jeff,

I really do appreciate all you've done to create and support ShadowPlan,
but it is in danger of becoming irrelevant if it's not updated soon.
Here are my quick suggestions:
a) I think a lot of people would be less anxious if you deleted the
"Shadow Plan 4.4.1 Coming Soon! " post on your home page.
b) Post an estimated time for the next release and try to stick to it!

But the best suggestions came from drjjwmac, and I support them and
highly encourage you to take them to heart!

--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com
<mailto:shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com> , "drjjwmac" <jjweimer <at> ...>
wrote:
>
> FWIW, as one who has stumbled through writing publically released code
> in other areas, my suggestions with respect to Shadow are ...
>
> 1) Drop support for third (and even second) generation legacy stuff
> ASAP - technology moves too fast and your obligations elsewhere will
> only continue to increase now that a new "family" has been born (BTW -
> my heartfelt congratulations! She is a beautiful baby.)
>
> 2) Get out a new update for one platform at a time (ie, the handheld,
> then WinXX, then MacOS, then Linux). Take worries off of your mind one
> at a time rather than compounding them in a synergistic way (ie, stop
> the all or nothing releases).
>
> 3) Worry a bit less about what the community of users wants and more
> about what keeps you supported and happy. It will work out for the
best.
>
> --
> JJW
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, Anita Lewis <a.lewis <at> ...> wrote:
>
> On 03/26/2007 04:17 PM drjjwmac wrote:
> >
> > FWIW, as one who has stumbled through writing publically released code
> > in other areas, my suggestions with respect to Shadow are ...
> >
> > 1) Drop support for third (and even second) generation legacy stuff
> > ASAP - technology moves too fast and your obligations elsewhere will
> > only continue to increase now that a new "family" has been born (BTW -
> > my heartfelt congratulations! She is a beautiful baby.)
> >
> > 2) Get out a new update for one platform at a time (ie, the handheld,
> > then WinXX, then MacOS, then Linux). Take worries off of your mind one
> > at a time rather than compounding them in a synergistic way (ie, stop
> > the all or nothing releases).
> >
> > 3) Worry a bit less about what the community of users wants and more
> > about what keeps you supported and happy. It will work out for the
best.
> >
>
> This all sounds like good advice to me.
>
> 1. If I have an old device, I do not expect the latest and greatest
> upgrades to work on it.
>
> 2. One platform at a time keeps your mind more free and focused to work
> on what is in front of you. It keeps at least someone happy when the
> new thing comes out and the others aware that their turn is coming. I
> fully agree with this even as a primarily Linux user. And I think that
> for the Desktop you should do Windows first, because that is what most
> are using.
>
> Anita

> 2. One platform at a time keeps your mind more free and focused to

That isn't true, IMO. If you have X platforms to support, you are
reduced to figuring out what the lowest common denominator is for all
platforms before you begin coding that feature for the first platform.

> > 1) Drop support for third (and even second) generation legacy

Probably easier said than done. There will be layers upon layers of
code - it won't be too predictable what taking out one low level
function will do. Presumably code mappers / generators / whatever code
analysing code is out there may help, but that presumes the
development platform is compatible with them.

Having said that, having someone do a complete re-write may not be a
bad thing. And all I mean by that is (a) Jeff's brain for the program
logic and how all this stuff fits together and inter-relates is far
more significant than any coding ability. Especially as development
tools and platforms provide a constantly shifting basis to work upon.
Farming out the coding to a 'partner' while retaining ownership and
direction may not be unreasonable. Especially if you consider that
many are asking for better inter-action with today's PIMs. Another
constantly moving target. Someone with those skills already may well
make the whole greater than the sum of the parts. Open Source'ing the
thing may also not be unreasonable. Jeff isn't charging for updates
anyways. Maybe there's a way to gain the initial amount as currently?
(b) My guess is that the 'OS' platforms aren't sharing common code. To
my mind that would be a priority. Develop the Linux desktop to
perfection. Re-compiling for OS X shouldn't be an extreme effort. Or
at least not as much as modifications needed to enable re-compile for
a windows platform. Cygwin? If I can get KDE Pim for Windows, the
approach must be viable.

> > 3) Worry a bit less about what the community of users wants and

Don't think I agree. Almost by definition what keeps users happy is
what keeps you supported. But I'd be surprised if SP is what keeps
Jeff supported. It can't be bringing in _that_ much revenue.

Seems almost required at this point that Jeff goes to a different
pricing model, or to Open Source, if things are going to evolve as the
user community wants.

I doubt that Jeff is supporting himself via SP, so going to a
different pricing model wherein he could support himself would require
quite a leap of faith on his part.

Particularly when it could all melt away if the pipe dreams of
AccessLinux come about allowing Open Source kiddies to come along and
provide a free version. Then melt away after 6 months because it's too
hard - leaving all their users in the dust.

On the other hand ... there's a reason why there are so few
competitors to SP out there. Not that I know what it is.

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--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "joyful.noises"
<joyfulnoises <at> ...> wrote:
I don't got your problem, if you want a big list, just put everything
in one database, that's ok, what problem with that?

>
> Hi--
>
> Having used Shadow for awhile now, I'm realizing that what I'd really
> like is just to have one big list of items/things to do, rather than
> separating them into separate files. I just want to see them all, in
> an Everything list (kind of like a shopping list with sub-bullets),
> rather than having to navigate through each of the separate lists I
> set up. Then later mark each of those things with a
> category/label/whatever so I can sort/call-out if necessary.
>
> Is there an easy way to do that? I'm thinking I'd like to figure out
> the Everything list before I figure out
> filters/tags/categories/whatever, which are things I've looked at but
> don't think are useful right now.
>
> Thanks much--
>
> Lise
>

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Thanks, but the only way I see to do it is to copy from one list and paste into the new, big
one. This would be laborious, given that I've got something like 10 lists. I'm looking for a
way to make it easy. Like dragging and dropping from one list to another, or choosing a
different list in a dropdown menu.

Perhaps I'm simply too new to the program and there's an easier way to do it.

Lise

--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "soloman8888" <soloman8888 <at> ...> wrote:
>
> --- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, "joyful.noises"
> <joyfulnoises <at> > wrote:
> I don't got your problem, if you want a big list, just put everything
> in one database, that's ok, what problem with that?
>
> >
> > Hi--
> >
> > Having used Shadow for awhile now, I'm realizing that what I'd really
> > like is just to have one big list of items/things to do, rather than
> > separating them into separate files. I just want to see them all, in
> > an Everything list (kind of like a shopping list with sub-bullets),
> > rather than having to navigate through each of the separate lists I
> > set up. Then later mark each of those things with a
> > category/label/whatever so I can sort/call-out if necessary.
> >
> > Is there an easy way to do that? I'm thinking I'd like to figure out
> > the Everything list before I figure out
> > filters/tags/categories/whatever, which are things I've looked at but
> > don't think are useful right now.
> >
> > Thanks much--
> >
> > Lise
> >
>

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On Thu, 5 Apr 2007, bs27975 wrote:

# On the other hand ... there's a reason why there are so few
# competitors to SP out there. Not that I know what it is.

I've said it before and I'll say it again --

Any whizkid (I know, I've been one of them :) can come out and
knock out something quick (be it crappy or awesome). Ideas are cheap,
coming up with prototype software is cheap. Staying with the game, doing
support, plugging along for years, weathering the market changes and
platform makeovers.. thats hard :) So just like people come up with random
but very good inventions while brushing their teeth .. the stuff tha
matters is when someone sticks to it enough to get something into someone
elses hands. Thats where most projects (open or closed) fail.

Its been interesting times (that someday I'll blog about to great
depth.. the rise and fall of a phenomena that was important yet very short
lived) as PDAs blew into the world, then swept themselves out just as
fast, for sure; Shadow certainly has done very well, but in this industry
only a few (ie: literally less than 10 :) make full income on a single
application (and I certainly priced things so that I couldn't.) Naturally,
I have many applications (on many platforms, not just Palm OS and not just
under the Codejedi name), though certainly Shadow was the lions share for
quite awhile. Anyway thats all for another day when I've had a few more
beers ;)

As any developer for Palm OS would say, the largest problem is
dealing with the OS, and dealing with wondering where its going. A lot of
companies have pulled out of Palm OS due to the total stagnation. (A lot
of which is directly the Palm* companies faults. .. I mean, having no
supported development environment for _years_... thats just sad :)

I've got a lot I could say here and will later, but the short
version is -- Palm dev maximizes time (instead of being efficient like it
used to be) -- you code special cases for dozens of OS and machine
variations. Need to trim away the fat and drop support for edge cases so
that when I invest time, its maximuly useful. The code was deisgned to be
lean and robust and mutable and its stretched remarkably well, and I can
put new handheld features in _very_ fast. Doing it across handheld and
desktop, and handling all those special cases, _Really_ slows things down
however.

Ex: I spent weeks working on some really cool features to fire off
'during' and 'after' hotsync; due to dozens of undocumented bugs in the OS
and Hotsync Manager, it just ended up working on some devices but not
others, and would need exhaustive testing and debugging to sort out.. so
it got left by the way side. A lot that got worked on in the last year is
like that.. The treo's can be brutal at times. (NVram / DataMangler bugs,
etc.)

Offhand it is tempting to just drop support for edge case
platforms (linux, etc), but I've always been the one waving the flag for
the small guys (since I'm a small guy too), so I need to tread carefully.
I'd like to merge in more Win Mobile / Pocket PC stuff, and possibly even
Symbian (though thats a seriously junky platform to dev for.)

If you go on pure business sense (not like I do that ;), then its
hard to justify a lot of where I have been going; so defining the next few
months is a complex question -- _what_ can I bite off, what can be farmed
out, what needs to be done, where are things going over the next 6mo, 12
mo, 18mo, etc. (Yep, I have plans from 10 years ago with gueses for the
next 5 years, etc. It was easier to guess, then :)

Devices are more powerful now .. back in the original Palm OS
days, we were coding for 12MHz with no space for things like memory
sorting. So desktop and conduit and handheld code necessarily had little
overlap, but nowadays you have the handheld power to share code more
across platforms if you do it right. (And theres another mess .. java
versus C# versus C/C++ versus others .. RIM being java, Symbian being java
(Crappily) or C (painfully), Palm being C/C++ or maybe java, Pocket PC
being C#, C/C++ or java somewhat)

Hence it is tempting to go back to the metal; keep a lot of really
good solid Shadow code, put a new UI together, being careful to ensure
maximum code re-usability for all those platforms somehow or another (ie:
C++ backend, localized frontend in java, C#, C++, python..)

Thats a big bite, though.

And like I said.. I can add to the Shadow handheld like a madman,
or even the Windows version.

So one option is to just do Windows + Palm and keep going,
dropping the others (or randomly doing builds, for fun.) Another option is
to do big giant rewrites or a new application with compatibility. Or keep
plugging along with what I have now.. a nice big cross platform system..
add more platforms (Win Mobile, Symbian) and try supporting Win, Mac,
Linux and the 3 PDA/smartphone platforms... *eep* :)

Anyway, this is just scratch the surface of what goes into
thinking about where things are going. I've got enormous plans, but ..
what can be done in practice :)

(Not to mention theres a whole web based and service-gateway world
out there; I almost had invesdtors for awhile for building web-shadow with
a smartphone mini-client for talking to it, and all sorts of crazy
groupware like that.)

Right now while the baby is keeping us busy I'm doing a lot of
research, fact collecting, bugging other developers (across all these
platforms, we're all pretty close .. the 'in it together' club). I've got
some prototyping going (Palm OS and the others, too).

I'm currently entirely ignoring Access Linux Platform (ALP), as
with the dismal last few years I need to not rely on vapour,,. (ie: their
last OS that went nowhere cost me a lot of work.. I had a nice version of
Shadow going for that, all tossed out the window :/)

I really hope ALP gets going so I can stick to my beloved Palm,
but canm't base my family on vapour ..

iPhone too, woowoo :)

(One wonders how much of OSX is in the iPhone .. seeing as I do
have a OSX Shadow after all... and trhe desktop code is nice and
transportable :)

jeff

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On Fri, 6 Apr 2007, joyful.noises wrote:

# Thanks, but the only way I see to do it is to copy from one list and
# paste into the new, big one. This would be laborious, given that I've
# got something like 10 lists. I'm looking for a way to make it easy. Like
# dragging and dropping from one list to another, or choosing a different
# list in a dropdown menu.
#
# Perhaps I'm simply too new to the program and there's an easier way to
# do it.

There are various tricks for doing fast copies in the handheld;
making sure the clipboard is in multi mode, then copy/copy/copying away
quickly; indent everything and just copy the one parent; use 'T' link mode
to link them all to todo then import them; all sorts of tricks.

The desktop might make it easier to mass-copy.

If you're savvy with a text editor, you can just copy/paste the
XML to make a new Shadow file with all the items.

Depends which side you're comfortable with :)

jeff

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Jeff,

A quick note on this ... (hence the massive snippage)

Oh, and hello again! Its been a while ... congratulations on the
little one!

Oh, yeah, the point ...

I can not corroborate this particular slowdown. I tried several times
to hit Menu-S fast enough to recreate this, and I could not, even
once. And the menu comes up quickly by itself (if that was not obvious).

Maybe tomorrow, when I have more time, we can start to compare notes
between me and Joe on what the differences are in our Treos.

Make no mistakes, I do get some serious slowdowns (posted a while
back), just not this one.

Ken
Treo 700p Garnet 5.4.9, SP 4.3.14

--- In shadow-discuss <at> yahoogroups.com, Jeff Mitchell <skeezix <at> ...> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks :)
>
> This seems very interesting: "pressing the Treo menu button takes
> a second before the menus are raised."
>
> Do you mean to say that just hitting the menu button, so the
> pull-down menus appear on the screen, is slow?
>
> That screams "they messed with the OS in some subtle but horrible
> way", since thats nothing to do with Shadow, but evidently we're
tripping
> it up.
>
> Can you confirm? If so, I'll go ask other devs .. *sigh* I hate
> Palm's forever buggering things up :)
>
> jeff
>
<snip>

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