Re: Fwd: questions about MCSim

Cindy,

It's good to see another MCSim user in the Pacific Northwest!  Enjoy
your modeling!

If it's of any use, I created a quick reference card for MCSim that
includes some of its newer features.  You can find it along with a
presentation I made two and a half years ago in Portland at
http://facilitatedsystems.com/links.html#sd

As to your question, I use J (http://www.jsoftware.com/) as my scripting
language, and I've written J scripts to assemble simulation files
programmatically, run the model, and produce graphs.  That worked quite
nicely.  

For a simple example, see http://www.adaptistration.com/?p=1185.  While
that article doesn't contain the scripts, it does show the results.  For
example (as I recall), I had a script that picked percentage ranges for
the three key parameters, assembled a simulation file, ran the
simulation, and plotted and saved the table of eight graphs or the stick
plot you can see.

Bill
--

-- 
Bill Harris                      http://facilitatedsystems.com/weblog/
Facilitated Systems                              Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/                  phone: +1 425 337-5541

"Standard Platform" ?

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Re: "Standard Platform" ?

The development platform is GNU/Linux. I would assume that the Unix
layer of the Mac would provide the necessary tools. 
By the way, the compilation is quite simple in fact. For mod you
compile everything in the mod directory (just make sure that there is no
model.c file
hanging out there). "gcc *.c " would do

For sim, it's a bit more complicated:
First: create the library, from the c files in the sim directory
(again, no model.c should be there)
gcc -c -O -fPIC *.c 
gcc -c -O -ffloat-store -fPIC modelu.c
gcc -shared -fPIC -o libmcsim.so *.o -lgsl -lgslcblas -lm

Then you would put the library libmcsim.so somewhere accessible and do
mod my_model_here.model 
gcc -O -I /usr/local/include -I where_you_put_mcsim/mcsim/sim model.c 
where_you_put_the library/libmcsim.so -lgsl -lgslcblas -lm 

That should create an executable a.out ready to do simulations with
your model.

Frederic Bois

>>> "Hansell,  Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB"
<Timothy.Hansell <at> WPAFB.AF.MIL> 27/05/2009 17:36 >>>

I’ve been trying to use MCSim on both windows and Mac OS (Leopard),
and have run in to quirks related to the compilation that prompt the
following question:

What is the“standard”platform that MCSim development is being done
on ? I’m assuming by posing this question that the build scripts and
tools are all designed for a certain Linux or Unix platform and that a
build will run clean on such a platform. 

I’ve been unsuccessful at finding good help in build MCSim for Mac
OS, and am attempting to create a virtual machine running a linux
distro, so that I can at leasthavea reference installationto refer to as
I work through what it takes to build for Mac.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Tim Hansell
Henry M. Jackson Foundation 
711 HPW/RHPB 
2729 R St, Bldg 837 
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433-5707 
Phone: (937) 255-4332
E-Mail: Timothy.Hansell <at> WPAFB.AF.MIL

RE: "Standard Platform" ?

Thanks for the help!

I am running Mac OS X Leopard 10.5.

The build scripts as included with 5.3.1 work (with some warnings) to build 'mod', but the gcc compiler
suite that comes with the latest XCode
Does not build shared libraries and in fact ignores the -shared flag, so it is impossible build the
libmcsim.so without error.

I have been investigating what changes need to be made to the build a dynamic lib (with the dylib extension)
which is the Mac analogy to shared libraries.

What Gnu/linux Distribution is used ? What versions of the GCC compiler suite, etc.... ?

-tim

-----Original Message-----
From: Frédéric BOIS [mailto:Frederic.BOIS <at> ineris.fr] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:58 PM
To: help-mcsim <at> gnu.org; Hansell, Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB
Subject: Re: [Help-mcsim] "Standard Platform" ?

The development platform is GNU/Linux. I would assume that the Unix
layer of the Mac would provide the necessary tools. 
By the way, the compilation is quite simple in fact. For mod you
compile everything in the mod directory (just make sure that there is no
model.c file
hanging out there). "gcc *.c " would do

For sim, it's a bit more complicated:
First: create the library, from the c files in the sim directory
(again, no model.c should be there)
gcc -c -O -fPIC *.c 
gcc -c -O -ffloat-store -fPIC modelu.c
gcc -shared -fPIC -o libmcsim.so *.o -lgsl -lgslcblas -lm

Then you would put the library libmcsim.so somewhere accessible and do
mod my_model_here.model 
gcc -O -I /usr/local/include -I where_you_put_mcsim/mcsim/sim model.c 
where_you_put_the library/libmcsim.so -lgsl -lgslcblas -lm 

That should create an executable a.out ready to do simulations with
your model.

Frederic Bois

>>> "Hansell,  Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB"
<Timothy.Hansell <at> WPAFB.AF.MIL> 27/05/2009 17:36 >>>

I’ve been trying to use MCSim on both windows and Mac OS (Leopard),
and have run in to quirks related to the compilation that prompt the
following question:

What is the“standard”platform that MCSim development is being done
on ? I’m assuming by posing this question that the build scripts and
tools are all designed for a certain Linux or Unix platform and that a
build will run clean on such a platform. 

I’ve been unsuccessful at finding good help in build MCSim for Mac
OS, and am attempting to create a virtual machine running a linux
distro, so that I can at leasthavea reference installationto refer to as
I work through what it takes to build for Mac.
Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Tim Hansell
Henry M. Jackson Foundation 
711 HPW/RHPB 
2729 R St, Bldg 837 
Wright-Patterson AFB, OH 45433-5707 
Phone: (937) 255-4332
E-Mail: Timothy.Hansell <at> WPAFB.AF.MIL

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Help-mcsim <at> gnu.org
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/help-mcsim

MCSim on Cygwin

Attached is a listing from a build attempt on Cygwin on Windows XP

There are errors in the creation of libmcsim.so

What am I doing wrong ?

-tim

cd ./mod; make
make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/mod'
make[1]: Nothing to be done for `one'.
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/mod'
cd ./sim; make lib
make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/sim'
Linking libmcsim.so...
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x956): undefined
reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x2b9c): undefined
reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x2ed9): undefined
reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x387d): undefined
reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x3b83): undefined
reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc7g5Fz1.o:lsodes1.c:(.text+0x4212): more undefined
references to `_CalcDeriv' follow
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/ccGXujfI.o:mh.c:(.text+0x2bbb): undefined reference to `_InitModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/ccGXujfI.o:mh.c:(.text+0x3474): undefined reference to `_InitModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x10): undefined reference
to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x28): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x31): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x37): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x47): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x60): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x74): more undefined
references to `_vrgInputs' follow
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x320): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x354): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x361): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x367): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x37b): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x381): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x3a8): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x3c4): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x3d1): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x418): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x44d): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x460): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x46a): more undefined
references to `_vrgInputs' follow
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x4a9): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x68f): undefined
reference to `_ScaleModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x6b5): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x6d0): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x708): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x724): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x72d): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x749): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x767): more undefined
references to `_vrgInputs' follow
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x7a8): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x815): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x878): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x88e): undefined
reference to `_vnStates'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8a8): undefined
reference to `_vnStates'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8b0): undefined
reference to `_vnModelVars'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8be): undefined
reference to `_vnStates'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8c4): undefined
reference to `_vnOutputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8ca): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x8e1): undefined
reference to `_vnParms'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x908): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x90d): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x918): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x993): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x9a6): undefined
reference to `_vrgModelVars'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0x9bc): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xae7): undefined
reference to `_vrgModelVars'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xafa): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xb4d): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xb78): undefined
reference to `_vrgModelVars'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xb82): undefined
reference to `_vnModelVars'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xb8c): undefined
reference to `_vnStates'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xba5): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xbbd): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xbca): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xbd3): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xbec): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xc13): undefined
reference to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xc35): more undefined
references to `_vrgInputs' follow
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xcfa): undefined
reference to `_vnInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xd19): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xe3d): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc5A7psu.o:modelu.c:(.text+0xe43): undefined
reference to `_vrgvmGlo'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/ccSiInYs.o:optdsign.c:(.text+0x620): undefined
reference to `_InitModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0x8f): undefined reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0xff): undefined reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0x4d5): undefined reference to `_InitModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0x53b): undefined reference to `_InitModel'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0xc84): undefined reference to `_szModelGenAndVersion'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0xc8c): undefined reference to `_szModelSourceFilename'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cc2vKNfI.o:sim.c:(.text+0xc94): undefined reference to `_szModelDescFilename'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0xce): undefined reference to `_CalcDeriv'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0xeb): undefined reference to `_CalcOutputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0x18b): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0x19d): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0x1a6): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0x1c0): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
/cygdrive/c/DOCUME~1/Tim/LOCALS~1/Temp/cceC8JsL.o:simo.c:(.text+0x1c8): undefined reference
to `_vrgInputs'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[1]: *** [libmcsim.so] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/sim'
make: [one] Error 2 (ignored)
cd ./doc; make
make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/doc'
Generating mcsim.info...
* Created: info file "mcsim.info".

Generating mcsim.pdf...
* Created: PDF file "mcsim.pdf".

make[1]: Leaving directory `/usr/local/src/mcsim/doc'

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Re: MCSim on Cygwin

Hansell, Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB <Timothy.Hansell <at>
WPAFB.AF.MIL> writes:

> Attached is a listing from a build attempt on Cygwin on Windows XP
> 
> There are errors in the creation of libmcsim.so
> 
> What am I doing wrong ?
> 
> -tim
> 
> ....

Answer: 
The compiler did not understand that you were trying to build a library and
complains about unresolved references (that are defined in the specific model.c
to be created by mod. That problem was met by others and I should post a fix. 

RE: Re: MCSim on Cygwin

Thanks!

I will look for it.

-tim

-----Original Message-----
From: help-mcsim-bounces+timothy.hansell=wpafb.af.mil <at> gnu.org
[mailto:help-mcsim-bounces+timothy.hansell=wpafb.af.mil <at> gnu.org] On Behalf
Of Frederic Bois
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:20 AM
To: help-mcsim <at> gnu.org
Subject: [Help-mcsim] Re: MCSim on Cygwin

Hansell, Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB <Timothy.Hansell <at>
WPAFB.AF.MIL> writes:

> Attached is a listing from a build attempt on Cygwin on Windows XP
> 
> There are errors in the creation of libmcsim.so
> 
> What am I doing wrong ?
> 
> -tim
> 
> ....

Answer: 
The compiler did not understand that you were trying to build a library and
complains about unresolved references (that are defined in the specific
model.c
to be created by mod. That problem was met by others and I should post a
fix. 

_______________________________________________
Help-mcsim mailing list
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_______________________________________________
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Re: MCSim on Cygwin

"Hansell, Timothy A CTR USAF AFMC 711 HPW/RHPB"
<Timothy.Hansell <at> WPAFB.AF.MIL> writes:

> Attached is a listing from a build attempt on Cygwin on Windows XP
>  
> There are errors in the creation of libmcsim.so
>  
> What am I doing wrong ?

Tim,

I've used MCSim in the past on XP; most everything seemed to work except
that I had to use makemcsims instead of makemcsim.  I may have had to do
a few workarounds to get it to build, but it's been a few years, so I
forget. 

I then moved to Linux (Ubuntu), and everything seemed to work much more
easily.  

Now I need to use MCSim in an XP and cygwin environment again, and I
haven't had success in building it yet (to be honest, I haven't even had
time to try in about a month).  I'll be watching what you and Frédéric
come up with; if I dig up stuff that has worked for me and is different
than what you found, I'll post it (sometime next week at the earliest).

Bill
--

-- 
Bill Harris                      http://facilitatedsystems.com/weblog/
Facilitated Systems                              Everett, WA 98208 USA
http://facilitatedsystems.com/                  phone: +1 425 337-5541