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Ryan McDougall | 1 Aug 2004 04:20
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sat, 2004-31-07 at 05:30 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> <quote who="Davyd Madeley">
> 
> > My take on this, is that nautilus shouldn't ship with the templates (same
> > as it doesn't ship with default mime handlers). Applications should
> > register templates with nautilus, so if you write templates, send them
> > upstream to the application authors.
> > 
> > ie. gedit could add a "Create text file" template.  or gnumeric could add
> > a "Create spreadsheet".
> 
> Please see previous threads (and most usefully, the original thread) about
> Templates support for some discussion about why this won't happen. We will
> end up with the same kind of complicated mess we have with menus if we ship
> templates by default and allow applications to 'register' their own. That's
> why only ~/Templates is read, and why it's left entirely up to the user (in
> their home directory), admin or distribution (in /etc/skel).
> 
> - Jeff
> 

I managed to find the original thread with a little bit of googling, but
I wish when people refer you to a thread, they might give you a hint on
how to find it (approx date, name, etc).

I agree with everything Alex said, but I don't agree that the conclusion
is that there should be no system-wide folder, or that the folders
should ship bare. To me its a call to have the Distro and GNOME ship
some sensible defaults.
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Jeff Waugh | 1 Aug 2004 04:18
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

<quote who="Ryan McDougall">

> I managed to find the original thread with a little bit of googling, but I
> wish when people refer you to a thread, they might give you a hint on how
> to find it (approx date, name, etc).

Sometimes, people don't remember.

> Since GNOME includes apps for editing certain files, IMO we should ship
> those templates. We are responsible for a good user experience as much as
> the distros.

Part of ensuring that good user experience is maintaining restraint. If we
encourage putting stuff in the Templates folder, everyone will start doing
it, just like Windows. Horrible, horrible. Let's leave it to users.

- Jeff

-- 
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       "I think of the last year or two as being the biggest private
         investment in public works in decades." - Andrew Tridgell
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Jeff Waugh | 1 Aug 2004 04:20
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

<quote who="Curtis Hovey">

> What we need is a document about _Living with GNOME_.

*Yeah!*

> Discovering the document is another issue.  When the desktop is upgraded,
> the user should see a presentation highlighting the new features.

Agree.

> PS.  I love the Template directory as it is.  I would like to see
> applications that have templates to add/update "Save As Template" to the
> file menu.

Bloody good idea.

- Jeff

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                    personal UI vendettas." - Anna Dirks
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Ryan McDougall | 1 Aug 2004 04:42
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sat, 2004-31-07 at 10:54 -0400, Curtis Hovey wrote:

> 
> Solid user documentation is absent in our platform releases.  Our rapid
> releases are confusing developers and users, such as in the case of
> spatial Nautilus and Templates.
> 
> What we need is a document about _Living with GNOME_.  It discusses how
> to use the desktop and it's applications, instead of just indicating
> what they do.  In the case of spatial Nautilus and templates, we pointed
> users and developers to previous conversations, or to essays on other
> sites to explain our reasoning.  Instead, our reasoning should be
> incorporated into our documentation, aided with plenty of examples
> derived from use cases.
> 
> In the chapter on document-centric computing:
> . Using folders to manage documents.
> . How to create a kind of document using the desktop.
> . Using the Templates folder to create new kinds of document.
> . Opening documents by clicking, keying, and drag and drop.
> 
> In the chapter on applications
> . Using the window list, window selector, and the keyboard to switch
>   windows.
> . Using workspaces to divide tasks.
> . working with windows and apps; close and quit.
> 
> Discovering the document is another issue.  When the desktop is
> upgraded, the user should see a presentation highlighting the new
> features.  The presentation will end with an suggestion to RTFM, which
(Continue reading)

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Ryan McDougall | 1 Aug 2004 04:50
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sat, 2004-31-07 at 19:18 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> <quote who="Ryan McDougall">
> 
> > I managed to find the original thread with a little bit of googling, but I
> > wish when people refer you to a thread, they might give you a hint on how
> > to find it (approx date, name, etc).
> 
> Sometimes, people don't remember.

Yeah, its a fact of life. :(

> 
> > Since GNOME includes apps for editing certain files, IMO we should ship
> > those templates. We are responsible for a good user experience as much as
> > the distros.
> 
> Part of ensuring that good user experience is maintaining restraint. If we
> encourage putting stuff in the Templates folder, everyone will start doing
> it, just like Windows. Horrible, horrible. Let's leave it to users.

I agree mostly, thats why it should be done by a group that can exercise
restraint. We can, and the distros can, but I fear there is no
motivation for the distros to do so. IMO that leaves it up to us.

While I definitely want to empower the user with choice, I don't want to
make them figure out how to open a simple text file via templates all by
themselves. All I'm talking about is adding an empty Text file, and
empty TAR/GZ, and maybe someone else can think of _one_ or _two_ things.
I'm just trying to bootstrap the discovery process. IMO that is
restraint and usability.
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Davyd Madeley | 1 Aug 2004 04:46
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 19:20 -0700, Jeff Waugh wrote:

> > Discovering the document is another issue.  When the desktop is upgraded,
> > the user should see a presentation highlighting the new features.
> 
> Agree.

Just like one of those annoying M$ clips eh? Perhaps we should be much
nicer, check for a version string in gconf (which will not exist if they
just installed, or be wrong if they upgraded) which says:

	Welcome to GNOME 2.8!

	To help you enhance your user experience, there
	is some documentation for first time and experienced
	users.
	 - What's new in GNOME 2.8?
	 - GNOME Users Guide
	 - Living with GNOME
	 - More... (GNOME Help)
						Ok <-|

It's nowhere near as invasive as that annoying wizard Ximian used to
have, is easily dismissed, never appears again, and might be helpful
to first time users.

Here's a mockup I drew about 2 seconds ago:
http://davyd.angrygoats.net/images/welcome-to-gnome-28-mockup.png

--d
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Jeff Waugh | 1 Aug 2004 04:49
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

<quote who="Ryan McDougall">

> I agree mostly, thats why it should be done by a group that can exercise
> restraint. We can, and the distros can, but I fear there is no motivation
> for the distros to do so. IMO that leaves it up to us.

That's not the point. If we create a 'standard' of pre-installing templates,
everyone will do it, and users will suffer the consequences. That's what I
mean by restraint - we can create a 'standard' of leaving it up to users.

> While I definitely want to empower the user with choice, I don't want to
> make them figure out how to open a simple text file via templates all by
> themselves. All I'm talking about is adding an empty Text file, and empty
> TAR/GZ, and maybe someone else can think of _one_ or _two_ things.  I'm
> just trying to bootstrap the discovery process. IMO that is restraint and
> usability.

You're bootstrapping the same way MS bootstrapped their templates menu. The
correct fix for this is exposing the ability to use templates elsewhere;
Curtis provided an excellent method of doing this.

- Jeff

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                            me." - Mary Gardiner
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Jeff Waugh | 1 Aug 2004 06:27
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

<quote who="Davyd Madeley">

> > > Discovering the document is another issue.  When the desktop is upgraded,
> > > the user should see a presentation highlighting the new features.
> > 
> > Agree.
> 
> Just like one of those annoying M$ clips eh? Perhaps we should be much
> nicer, check for a version string in gconf (which will not exist if they
> just installed, or be wrong if they upgraded) which says:

That's what Curtis was suggesting. :-)

- Jeff

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   On a clear day, I bet you can really see the class struggle from that
                            penthouse of yours.
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Shaun McCance | 2 Aug 2004 04:08
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 10:54 -0400, Curtis Hovey wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 14:48 +0100, Jamie McCracken wrote:
> > On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 14:15, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> > > b) the Templates folder is visible so users can interact with it easily,
> > > same as Desktop
> > 
> > Yes but then it should be renamed NautilusTemplates or something cause
> > Templates is too generic especially under the Home directory - I had no
> > idea what the empty Templates folder did in FC2 when I first installed
> > it so I deleted that folder! Had I known it was used by Nautilus then I
> > would of course have kept it.
> 
> Solid user documentation is absent in our platform releases.  Our rapid
> releases are confusing developers and users, such as in the case of
> spatial Nautilus and Templates.
> 
> What we need is a document about _Living with GNOME_.  It discusses how
> to use the desktop and it's applications, instead of just indicating
> what they do.  In the case of spatial Nautilus and templates, we pointed
> users and developers to previous conversations, or to essays on other
> sites to explain our reasoning.  Instead, our reasoning should be
> incorporated into our documentation, aided with plenty of examples
> derived from use cases.

I'd recommend that any time anybody comes up with the idea of creating
some new document that they add gnome-doc-list to the CC list. :)

The documentation team has more-or-less decided to split off parts of
the over-crowded User Guide into a 'Tour of the Desktop' type document,
which is effectively what's being suggested here.  There's also been
(Continue reading)

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Shaun McCance | 2 Aug 2004 04:18
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Re: Templates directory looks pretty bare

On Sun, 2004-08-01 at 21:08 -0500, Shaun McCance wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 10:54 -0400, Curtis Hovey wrote:
> > On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 14:48 +0100, Jamie McCracken wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2004-07-31 at 14:15, Jeff Waugh wrote:
> > > > b) the Templates folder is visible so users can interact with it easily,
> > > > same as Desktop
> > > 
> > > Yes but then it should be renamed NautilusTemplates or something cause
> > > Templates is too generic especially under the Home directory - I had no
> > > idea what the empty Templates folder did in FC2 when I first installed
> > > it so I deleted that folder! Had I known it was used by Nautilus then I
> > > would of course have kept it.
> > 
> > Solid user documentation is absent in our platform releases.  Our rapid
> > releases are confusing developers and users, such as in the case of
> > spatial Nautilus and Templates.
> > 
> > What we need is a document about _Living with GNOME_.  It discusses how
> > to use the desktop and it's applications, instead of just indicating
> > what they do.  In the case of spatial Nautilus and templates, we pointed
> > users and developers to previous conversations, or to essays on other
> > sites to explain our reasoning.  Instead, our reasoning should be
> > incorporated into our documentation, aided with plenty of examples
> > derived from use cases.
> 
> I'd recommend that any time anybody comes up with the idea of creating
> some new document that they add gnome-doc-list to the CC list. :)
> 
> The documentation team has more-or-less decided to split off parts of
> the over-crowded User Guide into a 'Tour of the Desktop' type document,
(Continue reading)

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