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Theppitak Karoonboonyanan | 1 Nov 2008 05:04
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff <friedel <at> translate.org.za> wrote:
> On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote:

>> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
>> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
>> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?
>
> This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there
> is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible
> with a little bit of work.

Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice
to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as
another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual
customization.

For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than
the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may
not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo
in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site
would help retain the unity in activities.

BTW, having repeated some assertions for several times, I think it's
enough for a dedicated live page:

  http://live.gnome.org/FootAndCulturalIssue

This summarizes what we have got so far, and what to do with the
cultural issue.
(Continue reading)

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Theppitak Karoonboonyanan | 1 Nov 2008 08:00
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<thep <at> linux.thai.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM, F Wolff <friedel <at> translate.org.za> wrote:
>> On Vr, 2008-10-31 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Kovar wrote:
>
>>> What about not using the foot logo, or introducing a new logo, if desirable,
>>> in Thai (and Lao, and perhaps some others) locale only? Would the logo
>>> change be sufficient solely as a part of your l10n processes?
>>
>> This sounds like an unintrusive and simple solution. I'm guessing there
>> is no infrastructure in place to do this today, but is probably possible
>> with a little bit of work.
>
> Using icon theme can also be unintrusive. However, it should be nice
> to make the logo better known, so that people can recognize it as
> another GNOME representation, not a fork or rebranding or casual
> customization.
>
> For example, the Gorilla theme is more associated with Ximian than
> the standard GNOME. We may have a new theme, but people may
> not treat it as GNOME. And it would look weird to use the new logo
> in promotion web sites and events. Some recognition at GNOME site
> would help retain the unity in activities.

Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
and the icon theming methods.

Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
(Continue reading)

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Petr Kovar | 1 Nov 2008 19:34
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <thep <at> linux.thai.net>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06
+0700:

(...)

> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
> and the icon theming methods.
> 
> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
> 
> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change
> the logo.
> 
> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> secondary logo.

Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely
have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least
that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for
them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Best,
Petr Kovar
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Theppitak Karoonboonyanan | 1 Nov 2008 20:10
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <pmkovar <at> gnome.org> wrote:
> "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <thep <at> linux.thai.net>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008 14:00:06
> +0700:
>
>> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
>> and the icon theming methods.
>>
>> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
>> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
>> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
>> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
>> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
>>
>> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
>> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to change
>> the logo.
>>
>> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
>> secondary logo.
>
> Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste likely
> have a better understanding of English or Western culture, right? (At least
> that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be a big problem for
> them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.

Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
than guessing the translators' whim on choosing inconsistent
translated terms. Many are full with typos or misinterpretations, for
example. Kind of bad impression. And that habit is not changed when
(Continue reading)

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Petr Kovar | 1 Nov 2008 20:51
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

"Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <thep <at> linux.thai.net>, Sun, 2 Nov 2008 02:10:32
+0700:

> On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:34 AM, Petr Kovar <pmkovar <at> gnome.org> wrote:
> > "Theppitak Karoonboonyanan" <thep <at> linux.thai.net>, Sat, 1 Nov 2008
> > 14:00:06 +0700:
> >
> >> Let me add another difference between the direct logo localization
> >> and the icon theming methods.
> >>
> >> Many Thai users don't like to use Thai translation. This is a popular
> >> taste, despite how much translation effort and quality assurance has
> >> been done. And that's why I put lower priority on translation than
> >> infrastructure development. (I joined the team after having done enough
> >> progress on GTK+, Pango, etc.)
> >>
> >> And by this practice, the logo localization will have limited effect,
> >> while theming still allows Thai people who choose English locale to
> >> change the logo.
> >>
> >> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> >> secondary logo.
> >
> > Let me ask you, those Thai people with such a non-Thai-locale taste
> > likely have a better understanding of English or Western culture,
> > right? (At least that's what I suppose.) So the foot logo shouldn't be
> > a big problem for them then? Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
> 
> Nope.The taste is popular just because software are badly translated
> in general. And people feel more happy with original English terms
(Continue reading)

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Theppitak Karoonboonyanan | 2 Nov 2008 03:41
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan
<thep <at> linux.thai.net> wrote:

> In summary, I'd propose icon theming + GNOME recognition of the
> secondary logo.

I've tried creating an icon theme using the hat logo.
  http://linux.thai.net/~thep/shots/gnome-logo/Hat-20081102.tar.gz

This overrides start-here, process-idle and process-working, to replace
the foot at known significant places. The throbber is quick and dirty draft.
Ideas are welcome.

Regards,
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Sergey Panov | 2 Nov 2008 07:13

Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

Hello Theppitak,

you raised an interesting question. There a few precedents, but I doubt
those cases validate the solution you propose:
  The first precedent that comes to mind is the reason the cheap sedan
from USSR was named "Lada"(archaic Slavic for "beautiful girl") instead
of the original "Zhiguli"(mountains in the area the car factory was
build by Fiat) because it was phonetically too close to "Gigolo".
  Another one is the "Firefox" in fox hating counties. This one is more
ridiculous then the previous one -- "firefox" is not a fox, but a red
Panda(unrelated to the entire dog family to which the real fox belongs).

I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some
(many/most) of the "cultural" sensitivities are ridiculous to the point
of being foony.

When I saw "foot"(long, long time ago) as a "Gnome Desktop" emblem I was
not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not
deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects.
It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my
personal reaction. I am  still a Gnome "bigot" and that "Foot" does not
bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda
cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing.   

Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural
differences/problems. Please check if it is just you.

PS. To me, the good example of culturally insensitive emblem would be
the old indo-europen symbol for the raising sun ("kolovrat" in Slavic).
The next in line is the sickle-and-hammer variant.
(Continue reading)

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Theppitak Karoonboonyanan | 2 Nov 2008 11:25
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

Hi,

On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Sergey Panov <sipan <at> sipan.org> wrote:

> I've mentioned those two examples in the wain attempt to prove that some
> (many/most) of the "cultural" sensitivities are ridiculous to the point
> of being foony.
>
> When I saw "foot"(long, long time ago) as a "Gnome Desktop" emblem I was
> not happy. I thought that the stinkiest part of the human body did not
> deserve to be an emblem of the one of the most important GNU projects.
> It had nothing to do with the cultural(Russian) background, it was my
> personal reaction. I am  still a Gnome "bigot" and that "Foot" does not
> bother me much anymore (all emblems are stupid). I even find it kinda
> cool now - rebellious, in-your-face sort of thing.
>
> Please, please think twice, trice, ... before claiming cultural
> differences/problems. Please check if it is just you.

As said somewhere else in these two threads, it's not me either.
And I believe most GNOME fans here like it.

The question is not for you, it's about your culture in general.

The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is
considered the least respected part of the body in my culture.
It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong
disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not
expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot
over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means
(Continue reading)

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Murray Cumming | 2 Nov 2008 19:26
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

On Sun, 2008-11-02 at 17:25 +0700, Theppitak Karoonboonyanan wrote:
> The problem I've met is a kind of barrier for new comers, as foot is
> considered the least respected part of the body in my culture.
> It's not that kind of disgust you explained. But it's a sign of strong
> disrespect. You should not point with your foot. You should not
> expose your foot toward others, bare or with shoe on. Raising foot
> over one's head, the most respected part of the body, by any means
> is a most obvious sign of disrespect. When sleeping, you should never
> point your foot to Buddha's image.

We all believe you, I think. Thanks for telling us about this.

To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular
design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the
board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen.

Maybe you could contact the GNOME Art team. They could make some
suggestions. Don't focus on the "Gnome" idea. Few people think of small
mythical beings when they think of GNOME. Unfortunately, I don't have a
good suggestion. Some other form of "G", maybe?

--

-- 
Murray Cumming
murrayc <at> murrayc.com
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com
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Thilo Pfennig | 2 Nov 2008 20:47
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Re: Cultural Issue with the Foot Logo

Murray Cumming schrieb:
> To make something happen, I guess you need to suggest a particular
> design. Then the GNOME board could approve it - you need to ask the
> board for a simple yes/no decision or it won't happen.
>   
That would be a very bad idea. Essentially a logo should be selected
with care next time. Just something different could easily be approved
by the board  but then could result in the next issue one day later. A
logo can be everything and it does not take much time to think of
'anything'. What would  be needed is a well thought through logo idea
with also some good people working on it. I think 'marketing by
accident' is like one starts programming randomly without any standards
or idea what one wants to accomplish. I would wish that some things
would change at GNOME.

Regards,
Thilo
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