Peter Williams | 1 Jun 02:32 2006

Re: Code Of Conduct

On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 10:49 -0400, Dan Winship wrote:
> Murray Cumming wrote:
> > I wouldn't feel optimistic about a code of conduct that didn't represent
> > our current consensus.
> ...
> > However, there's no shortage of people saying both that
> > - Some improvement in behaviour is necessary
> 
> These points don't fit together. If we are just making the current tacit
> CoC explicit, then we would expect no change in behavior. If we are
> trying to change behavior, then the CoC can't just represent the current
> consensus.

I would think of the CoC as more of an (intentionally weak) enforcement
mechanism, rather than a change in policy. If someone is being
obnoxious, hopefully someone will drop an email and say something like,
"Hey, try to keep the Code in mind, OK?" It seems that the worry with
such an idea is that people will send emails more like, "Hey you
violated the Code, you're not welcome in GNOME anymore." But we can try
to avoid this with a sort of meta-CoC. Perhaps a paragraph along these
lines:

"* Be reasonable. This Code is just a set of suggestions for polite
behavior. Everyone gets angry from time to time. Don't beat the Code of
Conduct over the heads of others, and don't use it as a basis to bar
people from participation in activities." (I haven't spent a while
honing this language or anything.)

Peter

(Continue reading)

Glynn Foster | 1 Jun 04:38 2006
Picon

Re: Code Of Conduct

Hey,

Jeff Waugh wrote:
> I guess I'll just fall back on the evidence as I've seen it - the Ubuntu
> Code of Conduct has communicated a very strong statement of intent, and
> ensured (not "made" but "ensured") that the Ubuntu community is a great
> place to be.
> 
> But cf. my email about why GNOME people stick around - I totally object to
> the suggestions that a Code of Conduct is only needed in desperate times.
> That's poppycock.

Yeah, I think it's a positive thing that GNOME to do and hope that we 
can work by. If it'll encourage more people to come and spend time in 
the project, I'm all in agreement.

Glynn
Yavor Doganov | 1 Jun 10:58 2006

Re: Code Of Conduct

On Wed, 31 May 2006 16:44:03 -0400, Tristan Van Berkom wrote:

> GNOME is Free Software and part of the GNU project [...]

> If the above statement is indeed true, I wonder where any misrepresentations
> are, if they can be rectified and what can be done in general to improve
> the overall interpretation of what the GNOME project is.

If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice
that many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating
system "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux.  Some of them were even
excited when a popular non-free software was relicensed recently,
allowing easier installation by the users, but still remaining
non-free.

If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand
firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software
Movement, you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of
other people, particularly the "minority" groups in question.

--

-- 
JID: doganov <at> jabber.minus273.org
Jeff Waugh | 1 Jun 12:01 2006

Re: Code Of Conduct

<quote who="Yavor Doganov">

> If you read Planet GNOME and some of the mailing lists, you'll notice that
> many developers use the term "Open Source" and call the operating system
> "Linux", instead of GNU or GNU/Linux.  Some of them were even excited when
> a popular non-free software was relicensed recently, allowing easier
> installation by the users, but still remaining non-free.
> 
> If the core developers and project participants do not value and stand
> firm behind the ideals of the GNU Project and the Free Software Movement,
> you cannot expect that these ideals will touch the hearts of other people,
> particularly the "minority" groups in question.

Oh man, come on, this is silly behaviour. GNOME developers are *passionate*
about Free Software, fiercely so. We're here to make sure that Free Software
gets into the hands of normal users, not just geeks. However, we *do not*
have our minds held hostage by dogma, and dogma doesn't drive freedom for
*anyone*. We're all consenting adults, we can make our own decisions about
what's good and what's not - but don't think for a minute that GNOME, as an
organisation and social group is not pursuing a fierce Free Software agenda.

- Jeff

--

-- 
linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia           http://lca2007.linux.org.au/

   "(Hint: IRC clients don't usually do DVD and VCD playback)." - Bastien
                                   Nocera
Anne Østergaard | 1 Jun 13:23 2006
Picon

Re: Code Of Conduct

ons, 31 05 2006 kl. 20:38 +0100, skrev Bill Haneman:
> On Wed, 2006-05-31 at 19:25, Tristan Van Berkom wrote:
> 
> > Nobody will be driven away by that, people might be driven away by
> > us stating that "you now are part of a community with a code of conduct".

Actually if persons are driven away by not being able to accept rules of
good conduct or The GNOME Ethics as we might prefer to call them then so
be it. IMHO.

> I don't agree.  Every community has a code of conduct, implied or
> explicit, IMO.  Anyhow, there's no real enforcement mechanism, so I
> don't see this as a realistic concern.
> 
> ANY change or statement with a "policy" feel carries the risk of
> alienating *somebody*, but that doesn't mean that embracing anarchy is
> better.

I have personally had the feeling over the past couple of years that the
general atmosphere in the GNOME community has hardened. 

I joined the community in 2001 when I meet you all at GUADEC in
Copenhagen. 
My reason for doing so was that it was the kindest most helpful group of
people (although mostly white western males) that I had met in FLOSS.

I think that being inventive is not equal to being anarchistic.

Anarchistic is not a virtue in my book. 

(Continue reading)

Murray Cumming | 1 Jun 13:56 2006

Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)

Anne wrote:
[snip]
> I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has
> become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is
> embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make
> some cultural changes.
>
> I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of
> Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan:
> http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org
>
> I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get
> a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish
> into a language you understand.)
[snip]

Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you
with it, but you need to create it and drive it.

As a start, I think we have some definite things to try, based on the
Flosspolls report:
http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-women-list/2006-May/msg00001.html

At the least, it would be great to read the policies or plans that other
science/technical organisations have created, particularly if they have
proven successful already. For instance, a list of web addresses, or
summaries. In English. You seem like the most well-informed person to do
this.

Murray Cumming
(Continue reading)

Luis Villa | 1 Jun 14:13 2006
Picon

Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)

On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming <murrayc <at> murrayc.com> wrote:
> Anne wrote:
> [snip]
> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has
> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is
> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and make
> > some cultural changes.
> >
> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of
> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan:
> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org
> >
> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could get
> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish
> > into a language you understand.)
> [snip]
>
> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help you
> with it, but you need to create it and drive it.

Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been
involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*-
which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by
someone with such experience.

Luis
Murray Cumming | 1 Jun 14:33 2006

Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)


> On 6/1/06, Murray Cumming <murrayc <at> murrayc.com> wrote:
>> Anne wrote:
>> [snip]
>> > I do not say this to start a new long debat in this tread. But it has
>> > become obvious that the 1% participation of women in FLOSS is
>> > embarrassing and we need to have a look at why this is the case and
>> make
>> > some cultural changes.
>> >
>> > I know that the Computer Science Department at the University of
>> > Gothenburg in Sweden has a gender action plan:
>> > http://www.informatik.gu.se/dokument/dokument.xsp?group=jamstalldhet&menu=org
>> >
>> > I think that many other universities and even GNOME and Ubuntu could
>> get
>> > a lot of inspiration here. (Provided it gets translated from Swedish
>> > into a language you understand.)
>> [snip]
>>
>> Realistically, this plans needs to be written by you. Others will help
>> you
>> with it, but you need to create it and drive it.
>
> Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been
> involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*-
> which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by
> someone with such experience.

Hmm, how about people working together? It just seems that the person who
(Continue reading)

Alan Horkan | 1 Jun 14:50 2006
Picon
Picon

Re: Code Of Conduct


On Wed, 31 May 2006, Richard Stallman wrote:

> Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:13:33 -0400
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> To: zuh <at> iki.fi
> Cc: foundation-list <at> gnome.org
> Subject: Re: Code Of Conduct
>
>     So I would definitely agree that given an idea of contributing (code),
>     women will easily ask who will pay for it where men might not. Maybe
>     they consider open source more as "working" than as a hobby or a way
>     social networking or even as a way to educate oneself.
>
> Perhaps this is a consequence of presenting GNOME as an "open source"
> activity.  That term excludes the idealism of free software, and
> invites people to look at the matter in purely practical terms --
> which is what these women then do.
>
> Perhaps they would understand better why it's worth spending time
> unpaid on our campaign if you tell them that this is the Free Software
> Movement, and that the goal of our campaign is freedom for us and for
> everyone.

If greater clarity and emphasis on freedom is the goal why not say
_Freedom Software_ and avoid the abiguity which in part lead other to
come up with different terminology?

--

-- 
Alan
(Continue reading)

Dave Neary | 1 Jun 15:03 2006
Picon

Re: Women in GNOME (Was: Code Of Conduct)


Hi,

Luis Villa wrote:
> Such a plan should be written by someone who has actually been
> involved in IRC, our mailing lists, bugzilla, etc., *as a developer*-
> which, sorry, isn't Anne. It will not work if it is not driven by
> someone with such experience.

That's not so. There's nothing preventing someone who isn't a developer
from comping up with a credible strategy for getting more women involved
in GNOME (although that's totally off-topic to the code of conduct
discussion). Any such plan would have to appeal to geek women - so who's
better placed to come up with a plan? A male geek or a female non-geek?

Cheers,
Dave.

--

-- 
David Neary
bolsh <at> gimp.org

Gmane