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Tim Ansell | 1 Aug 2007 08:45
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Re: Python and clients

My first suggestion is to give the tpclient-pywx a go. Unlike most games
it uses standard Window's widgets so your screen reader has some chance
of being able to cope. 

Out of interest, is it possible to get a free/trial copy of your program
so I can give it a go myself? I found this site,
http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/ but at $US 895.00 it was a bit
expensive :)

The client is divided into a couple of main windows, these are
 - The main window, which just has a status bar and the menu options.
 - The message window, which displays all your current messages.
 - The starmap, which displays the universe in graphical form (which
will be pretty much useless for you).
 - The universe tree, which displays the universe in a text tree format
(you can change the currently selected object using this window).
 - The information window, which displays textual information about the
currently selected object (things like the position, etc).
 - The order window, which lets you issue orders to the currently
selected object.

I don't know how good your screen reader is, but I think it should work
quite well with the message window, universe tree and information
window. It may have a hard time with the order window (but we could work
on that). In fact you may have quite a decent experience.

Just a few tricks you might want to look out for, 
 - The order window will change what it displays depending on what
object you have selected and what order you have selected.
 - A tips window will popup the first time you download the Universe.
(Continue reading)

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Zachary Kline | 1 Aug 2007 08:58
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Re: Python and clients

Hi,
    I'll definitely give it a try.  As for a demo of Window-Eyes, yes, there 
is such a thing.  You can just download it from the GW Micro 
site--apologies, I don't have an exact URL for you.  But it is on the 
support page, I believe.
You can try out the demo for up to forty minutes per reboot, unlimited 
amounts of time.  Which is pretty nice, in my opinion.  Yes, $895 is steap 
indeed.
    Thanks for the tips about TP and the WX Client.  I'll try it now and see 
what I can make of it.  The universe tree sounds real promising.
All the best, and I'll let you know how it goes,
Zack.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Ansell" <mithro <at> mithis.com>
To: "Thousand Parsec Users List" <tp <at> thousandparsec.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2007 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [tp] Python and clients

> My first suggestion is to give the tpclient-pywx a go. Unlike most games
> it uses standard Window's widgets so your screen reader has some chance
> of being able to cope.
>
> Out of interest, is it possible to get a free/trial copy of your program
> so I can give it a go myself? I found this site,
> http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/ but at $US 895.00 it was a bit
> expensive :)
>
> The client is divided into a couple of main windows, these are
> - The main window, which just has a status bar and the menu options.
(Continue reading)

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Zachary Kline | 1 Aug 2007 09:36
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Tpclient-pywx experiences

Hiya,
    I was able to successfully download Tpclient-pywx, and look at the universal treeview--wow, what a nice feature that is!  It worked perfectly with the screen reader after a little fiddling to get focus to it.
    The order entry seemed to go reasonably well, though I wish there were a function from the treeview or  menus to input long strings of numbers.
I just went to the Windows menu and shut off the starmap.  It was more annoying than it was worth. 
    I haven't done any extensive field testing yet, of course, but this is a very nice first experience.
Any thoughts?
Thanks, Tim and all, for being willing to help with this project.
Hope to hear back soon,
Zack.
 
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tp <at> thousandparsec.net
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Tim Ansell | 2 Aug 2007 08:11
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Re: Tpclient-pywx experiences

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 00:36 -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
> Hiya,
>     I was able to successfully download Tpclient-pywx, and look at the
> universal treeview--wow, what a nice feature that is!  It worked
> perfectly with the screen reader after a little fiddling to get focus
> to it.

That is pretty good. It's a nice quick way to get around the universe.
Be warned though, the tree structure doesn't necessarily indicate
locality (although both the servers try and preserve that).

>     The order entry seemed to go reasonably well, though I wish there
> were a function from the treeview or  menus to input long strings of
> numbers.

I'm assuming you are talking about the move order. Currently the method
is to click the little "P" button which lets you then select a target on
the starmap. Obviously that wouldn't be much use to you, it is also
pretty clunky.

tpserver-py also has a "MoveTo" order, which lets you just select a
destination. I'm pretty sure tpserver-cpp will support it soon enough.

> I just went to the Windows menu and shut off the starmap.  It was more
> annoying than it was worth.  

I doubt the screen reader would be able to make heads or tails of the
starmap. Luckily at the moment the starmap isn't all that useful.

>     I haven't done any extensive field testing yet, of course, but
> this is a very nice first experience.

That is cool.

> Any thoughts?

The interface in the client is very rough, even for people who can see.
It really needs work.

> Thanks, Tim and all, for being willing to help with this project.
> Hope to hear back soon,

I really need help with developing tpclient-pywx. Adding features like a
"distance to" screen should be pretty easy to do and would be a great
addition (for sighted and unsighted people). 

If you are interested in helping out I can help you get a development
environment setup. It's a little bit tricky under windows as it does not
support symbolic links.

> Zack.

There is also currently a tpclient-pywx development branch where most of
the new cool stuff is going on (such as the server browser support,
better windowing support, etc). I would recommend checking that out too,
however no binaries of it exist yet.

Tim Ansell
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Zachary Kline | 2 Aug 2007 08:32
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Re: Tpclient-pywx experiences

Hello,
    I would very much love to help with TpClient-Pywx, but unfortunately at 
the present anyway I am going to be off on vacation for a few weeks.  I'll 
have speratic access to the Internet, if any at all, and so I'm not sure how 
practically helpful I could be until I get back.
    I'd certainly like to try it, though, if possible.  But I'm afraid it 
probably won't be for a bit yet.
Thank you for all the information, and your willingness and interest in 
helping.  Yes, I was refering to the move order.
Thanks,
Zack.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Ansell" <mithro <at> mithis.com>
To: "Thousand Parsec Users List" <tp <at> thousandparsec.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2007 11:11 PM
Subject: Re: [tp] Tpclient-pywx experiences

> On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 00:36 -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
>> Hiya,
>>     I was able to successfully download Tpclient-pywx, and look at the
>> universal treeview--wow, what a nice feature that is!  It worked
>> perfectly with the screen reader after a little fiddling to get focus
>> to it.
>
> That is pretty good. It's a nice quick way to get around the universe.
> Be warned though, the tree structure doesn't necessarily indicate
> locality (although both the servers try and preserve that).
>
>>     The order entry seemed to go reasonably well, though I wish there
>> were a function from the treeview or  menus to input long strings of
>> numbers.
>
> I'm assuming you are talking about the move order. Currently the method
> is to click the little "P" button which lets you then select a target on
> the starmap. Obviously that wouldn't be much use to you, it is also
> pretty clunky.
>
> tpserver-py also has a "MoveTo" order, which lets you just select a
> destination. I'm pretty sure tpserver-cpp will support it soon enough.
>
>> I just went to the Windows menu and shut off the starmap.  It was more
>> annoying than it was worth.
>
> I doubt the screen reader would be able to make heads or tails of the
> starmap. Luckily at the moment the starmap isn't all that useful.
>
>>     I haven't done any extensive field testing yet, of course, but
>> this is a very nice first experience.
>
> That is cool.
>
>> Any thoughts?
>
> The interface in the client is very rough, even for people who can see.
> It really needs work.
>
>> Thanks, Tim and all, for being willing to help with this project.
>> Hope to hear back soon,
>
> I really need help with developing tpclient-pywx. Adding features like a
> "distance to" screen should be pretty easy to do and would be a great
> addition (for sighted and unsighted people).
>
> If you are interested in helping out I can help you get a development
> environment setup. It's a little bit tricky under windows as it does not
> support symbolic links.
>
>> Zack.
>
> There is also currently a tpclient-pywx development branch where most of
> the new cool stuff is going on (such as the server browser support,
> better windowing support, etc). I would recommend checking that out too,
> however no binaries of it exist yet.
>
> Tim Ansell
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> tp mailing list
> tp <at> thousandparsec.net
> http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/mailman.php/listinfo/tp
>
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Tim Ansell | 2 Aug 2007 08:34
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Re: TP and the blind

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 16:08 -0500, Matt Minnis wrote:
> Some sort of grant either governmental or private may be possible to get
> some funding since it is for accessability. 

Know of anywhere we could look? 

Getting money to work on Thousand Parsec is most developers dream! :)

Mithro
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Tim Ansell | 2 Aug 2007 08:36
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Re: Tpclient-pywx experiences

On Wed, 2007-08-01 at 23:32 -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
> Hello,
>     I would very much love to help with TpClient-Pywx, but unfortunately at 
> the present anyway I am going to be off on vacation for a few weeks.  I'll 
> have speratic access to the Internet, if any at all, and so I'm not sure how 
> practically helpful I could be until I get back.

We have been around since 2001, we aren't going anywhere :) Please get
back into contact with us when you get back!

>     I'd certainly like to try it, though, if possible.  But I'm afraid it 
> probably won't be for a bit yet.

That is fine, as I said above, we have been working on this for 6 years
what is another couple of months?

> Thank you for all the information, and your willingness and interest in 
> helping.  Yes, I was refering to the move order.

> Thanks,
> Zack.

See you around.

Tim Ansell
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Matt Minnis | 2 Aug 2007 17:08

Re: TP and the blind

Unfortunately, no I don't know where to look.
I have heard about stuff here & there on the news about people getting
grants for accessability studies and stuff.
Perhaps this is an angle that could be investigated?  Developing methods of
displaying output for easier use w. screen readers for the visually
impaired?  In the process of this get to work on TP.

Matt 

-----Original Message-----
From: tp-bounces <at> thousandparsec.net [mailto:tp-bounces <at> thousandparsec.net]
On Behalf Of Tim Ansell
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2007 01:34
To: Thousand Parsec Users List
Subject: Re: [tp] TP and the blind

On Mon, 2007-07-30 at 16:08 -0500, Matt Minnis wrote:
> Some sort of grant either governmental or private may be possible to get
> some funding since it is for accessability. 

Know of anywhere we could look? 

Getting money to work on Thousand Parsec is most developers dream! :)

Mithro

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tp mailing list
tp <at> thousandparsec.net
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Zachary Kline | 12 Aug 2007 19:17
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Back sooner than expected

Hi,
    Well, actually, this isn't quite true.  I'm still on vacation, but I have net access more readily than I anticipated.
    I still have a definite interest in TP--as well as 4X-style games in general.  In fact, I've started an effort to try and ask Stardock to make Galactic Civilizations 2 accessible.  That seems as if it's not likely to happen, however.
    Anyhow, I just felt I should let you guys know I'm back.  I'm rather curious as to the status of TP.  What kinds of rules can be implemented?  Might those relate to accessibility in some way or other?
Thanks,
Zack.
 
_______________________________________________
tp mailing list
tp <at> thousandparsec.net
http://www.thousandparsec.net/tp/mailman.php/listinfo/tp
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Tim Ansell | 13 Aug 2007 06:41
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Re: Back sooner than expected

On Sun, 2007-08-12 at 10:17 -0700, Zachary Kline wrote:
> Hi,
>     Well, actually, this isn't quite true.  I'm still on vacation, but
> I have net access more readily than I anticipated.
>     I still have a definite interest in TP--as well as 4X-style games
> in general.  In fact, I've started an effort to try and ask Stardock
> to make Galactic Civilizations 2 accessible.  That seems as if it's
> not likely to happen, however.

I played Galactic Civ 2 a bit, but the lack of multiple player and a
poor single player campaign meant I didn't end up liking it much.

>     Anyhow, I just felt I should let you guys know I'm back.  I'm
> rather curious as to the status of TP.  What kinds of rules can be
> implemented?  Might those relate to accessibility in some way or
> other?

I think the first step to making tpclient-pywx (and thus Thousand
Parsec) more usable to vision impaired people is to implement a
"distance too" window which could be used in place of the current
starmap. 

This window would display the distances (and bearing) between the
currently selected object and other objects in the universe. Probably
the best way to display this information is in columns, with clicking on
the heading changing the sort order. I can see that this could be useful
to normal people for a number of reasons.

This window should be pretty trivial to implement and would be a good
task for someone who wants to start getting involved with tpclient-pywx
development.

Another improvement that should be made is the ability to move around
the interface totally using the keyboard. This is probably a little more
involved.

> Thanks,
> Zack.

Mithro aka Tim Ansell
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