Ognyan Kulev | 1 Feb 08:31 2005
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Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Hi,

Many cyrillic letters have the same shape as latin letters.  But when 
DejaVu is used for such letters, they look differently -- like this is 
not the same font.  Is this intended?  Do you plan to fix that?

A screenshot is attached.  On the left, there are latin letters, and on 
the right there are cyrillic ones.  All is with DejaVu Sans.

Regards,
ogi

Ognyan Kulev | 1 Feb 08:57 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Ognyan Kulev wrote:
> A screenshot is attached.  On the left, there are latin letters, and on 
> the right there are cyrillic ones.  All is with DejaVu Sans.

This time it's really attached.

Regards,
ogi
Stepan Roh | 1 Feb 11:46 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different


On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, Ognyan Kulev wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Many cyrillic letters have the same shape as latin letters.  But when DejaVu 
> is used for such letters, they look differently -- like this is not the same 
> font.  Is this intended?  Do you plan to fix that?
>
> A screenshot is attached.  On the left, there are latin letters, and on the 
> right there are cyrillic ones.  All is with DejaVu Sans.

The glyphs are the same (am I right, Danilo?). I guess the difference is 
in the lack of hinting in cyrillic ones. What system is it?

Have a nice day.

Stepan Roh

Danilo Šegan | 1 Feb 12:06 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Hi Ogi, Stepan,

Today at 11:46, Stepan Roh wrote:

>> Many cyrillic letters have the same shape as latin letters.  But
>> when DejaVu is used for such letters, they look differently -- like
>> this is not the same font.  Is this intended?  Do you plan to fix
>> that?
>>
>> A screenshot is attached.  On the left, there are latin letters, and
>> on the right there are cyrillic ones.  All is with DejaVu Sans.
>
> The glyphs are the same (am I right, Danilo?). I guess the difference
> is in the lack of hinting in cyrillic ones. What system is it?

Yes, that's what I suppose as well.  FWIW, they differ even on systems
using FreeType2 for rendering, so I prefer to have Cyrillic glyphs
auto-hinted (actually, I like auto-hinting all glyphs, so they look
the same).  We have plans to hint Cyrillic glyphs as well (perhaps we 
should just copy instructions over—can that be done David? though,
this would be ugly on its own, since some letters would be hinted and
others wouldn't), but we're not there yet.

FWIW, I've heard from a friend that Cyrillic looks disastreous
on Windows, but I don't know how would I go about fixing that :(

Cheers,
Danilo

(Continue reading)

Stepan Roh | 1 Feb 12:37 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different


On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, [utf-8] Danilo Šegan wrote:

> Hi Ogi, Stepan,
>
> Today at 11:46, Stepan Roh wrote:
>
>>> Many cyrillic letters have the same shape as latin letters.  But
>>> when DejaVu is used for such letters, they look differently -- like
>>> this is not the same font.  Is this intended?  Do you plan to fix
>>> that?
>>>
>>> A screenshot is attached.  On the left, there are latin letters, and
>>> on the right there are cyrillic ones.  All is with DejaVu Sans.
>>
>> The glyphs are the same (am I right, Danilo?). I guess the difference
>> is in the lack of hinting in cyrillic ones. What system is it?
>
> Yes, that's what I suppose as well.  FWIW, they differ even on systems
> using FreeType2 for rendering, so I prefer to have Cyrillic glyphs
> auto-hinted (actually, I like auto-hinting all glyphs, so they look
> the same).  We have plans to hint Cyrillic glyphs as well (perhaps we
> should just copy instructions over˙˙can that be done David? though,
> this would be ugly on its own, since some letters would be hinted and
> others wouldn't), but we're not there yet.

If the cyrillic glyph is exact copy, copying TtfInstrs/EndTtf inside SFD 
is OK.

> FWIW, I've heard from a friend that Cyrillic looks disastreous
(Continue reading)

Danilo Šegan | 1 Feb 12:43 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Hi Stepan,

Today at 12:37, Stepan Roh wrote:

> If the cyrillic glyph is exact copy, copying TtfInstrs/EndTtf inside
> SFD is OK.

Yeah, but I still think it would be more than funny to have one letter
"crisp", and the one next to it (in words, in real text) "fuzzy" or
"edgy". 

>> FWIW, I've heard from a friend that Cyrillic looks disastreous
>> on Windows, but I don't know how would I go about fixing that :(
>
> Hinting would probably help, I guess.

Yeah, I thought more of "what else except hinting", since I don't know
how to do hinting (yet :).

Cheers,
Danilo

Ognyan Kulev | 1 Feb 15:32 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Danilo Šegan wrote:
> Yeah, but I still think it would be more than funny to have one letter
> "crisp", and the one next to it (in words, in real text) "fuzzy" or
> "edgy". 

I agree that hinting only the shapes that come from Bitstream Vera and 
leaving the rest cyrillic letters without hinting is worse than no 
hinting for all cyrillic letters.

I think you should definately add this item to 
http://dejavu.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Plans .

The screenshot was of Abiword on Debian Sarge (freetype2).

Regards,
ogi

Danilo Šegan | 1 Feb 15:46 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Hi Ogi,

Today at 15:32, Ognyan Kulev wrote:

> Danilo Šegan wrote:
>> Yeah, but I still think it would be more than funny to have one letter
>> "crisp", and the one next to it (in words, in real text) "fuzzy" or
>> "edgy". 
>
> I agree that hinting only the shapes that come from Bitstream Vera and
> leaving the rest cyrillic letters without hinting is worse than no
> hinting for all cyrillic letters.

I actually only thought of having some Cyrillic glyphs hinted (those
which are exactly the same as the ones in Bitstream Vera) vs. none
Cyrillic glyphs hinted. 

FWIW, I agree with you completely, because that would allow FT2
auto-hinter to auto-hint entire font (thereby looking similar across
entire range), but I'm certain that would be near to impossible to
convince other Latin-only folks to drop hints from Latin area (right,
Stepan? :).  I.e. only us who use Cyrillic for our daily work will
have problems with it, and that's why I compile FreeType2 with
bytecode interpreter disabled instead (you can also try playing with
auto-hinter options in your /etc/fonts/fonts.conf).

Cheers,
Danilo

(Continue reading)

Ognyan Kulev | 1 Feb 16:13 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different

Danilo Šegan wrote:
> I actually only thought of having some Cyrillic glyphs hinted (those
> which are exactly the same as the ones in Bitstream Vera) vs. none
> Cyrillic glyphs hinted. 
> 
> FWIW, I agree with you completely, because that would allow FT2
> auto-hinter to auto-hint entire font (thereby looking similar across
> entire range), but I'm certain that would be near to impossible to
> convince other Latin-only folks to drop hints from Latin area (right,
> Stepan? :).  I.e. only us who use Cyrillic for our daily work will
> have problems with it, and that's why I compile FreeType2 with
> bytecode interpreter disabled instead (you can also try playing with
> auto-hinter options in your /etc/fonts/fonts.conf).

I installed DejaVu and set it in Mozilla  as default family for all 
encodings.  In Debian Sarge, auto-hinting is disabled by default and 
latin and cyrillic characters look differently.  When I enable global 
auto-hinting, both (latin & cyrillic) look equally "fuzzy" ;-) 
Screenshots are attached.

So as I said, better not add hinting for selected cyrillic characters, 
but all or nothing.  Hinting on selected cyrillic characters will be 
worse than autohint-off.png.

Regards,
ogi
Stepan Roh | 1 Feb 16:58 2005
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Re: Latin and cyrillic character shapes are different


On Tue, 1 Feb 2005, [utf-8] Danilo Šegan wrote:

> Hi Ogi,
>
> Today at 15:32, Ognyan Kulev wrote:
>
>> Danilo Šegan wrote:
>>> Yeah, but I still think it would be more than funny to have one letter
>>> "crisp", and the one next to it (in words, in real text) "fuzzy" or
>>> "edgy".
>>
>> I agree that hinting only the shapes that come from Bitstream Vera and
>> leaving the rest cyrillic letters without hinting is worse than no
>> hinting for all cyrillic letters.
>
> I actually only thought of having some Cyrillic glyphs hinted (those
> which are exactly the same as the ones in Bitstream Vera) vs. none
> Cyrillic glyphs hinted.
>
> FWIW, I agree with you completely, because that would allow FT2
> auto-hinter to auto-hint entire font (thereby looking similar across
> entire range), but I'm certain that would be near to impossible to
> convince other Latin-only folks to drop hints from Latin area (right,
> Stepan? :).

I use auto-hinter and antialiasing so I don't care :-) But others do care, 
I'm afraid.

>  I.e. only us who use Cyrillic for our daily work will
(Continue reading)


Gmane