Leiv Hellebo | 1 May 2010 06:29
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Re: Pre-RFC: The Advanced Vocal Tree proposal

On 30. april 2010 11:18, Brian Schweitzer wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 3:13 AM, Leiv Hellebo wrote:
>     This would be a simpler discussion if the five releases criteria was
>     followed, I think :)
>
>
> The negative there, in my eyes, would be that the resulting tree
> wouldn't show in order or appear completely.  Let's say we do adopt a 5
> release criteria, then apply that to something like fach or choir type.
> First, we're likely to more often run into the need on works, rather
> than releases - so we'd need to expand it to works as counting for the
> 5.  Then we get the voice types added in any random order - and to the
> best of my knowledge, the ordering of same-level children within a node
> of the AR tree is based on order added, and is not controllable by the
> relationship editor?  Third, we now get incompleteness within the tree -
> as I said before, the instruments tree needs this type of basis, as the
> list of potential instruments is essentially unlimited.  The same is not
> true for types of voices or choirs.  Those are quite limited, and I just
> can't justify why we'd want a situation where, say, soprano is complete,
> but all subtypes of bass (or choir-type) are omitted simply because
> noone, indiividually, requested them yet.  That's why I'd suggest we
> simply get it right the first time, then do it, rather than building it
> up piecemeal one by one.
>
> Lastly, when the tree would finally be complete, the 5 release process
> would still remain - the potential would exist for redundancy or 'almost
> redundancy' in the tree.  I'm saying this badly, but what I'm getting at
> is this: what happens when someone requests something, gives 5
> releases/works, but the tree is already full, and the thing they're
> requesting is either heavily debatable or otherwise problematic?
(Continue reading)

Rob Keeney | 1 May 2010 06:34
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Re: NGS: Mediums, vinyl, cassettes, laserdisc, dualDisc, etc?

Actually, your second example (5 LPs) is simply an extended example of the first (2 LPs). Both illustrate the same point. Currently, there is no way to override MB's track numbering on a release, If you could, then both sides of a single disc would be entered as a single release.

Rob.........


You didn't have:


Record 1: Sides A and D
Record 2: Sides B and C

You instead had:


Record 1: Sides A and F
Record 2: Sides B and G
Record 3: Sides C and H
Record 4: Sides D and I
Record 5: Sides E and J


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Brian Schweitzer | 1 May 2010 07:08
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Re: NGS: Mediums, vinyl, cassettes, laserdisc, dualDisc, etc?

Ooops, you're right - that should have read:

Record 1: Sides A and B
Record 2: Sides C and D

ie, the typical modern case.  :)

Brian

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 12:34 AM, Rob Keeney <pianissimo84-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Actually, your second example (5 LPs) is simply an extended example of the first (2 LPs). Both illustrate the same point. Currently, there is no way to override MB's track numbering on a release, If you could, then both sides of a single disc would be entered as a single release.

Rob.........


You didn't have:


Record 1: Sides A and D
Record 2: Sides B and C

You instead had:


Record 1: Sides A and F
Record 2: Sides B and G
Record 3: Sides C and H
Record 4: Sides D and I
Record 5: Sides E and J



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Rob Keeney | 1 May 2010 20:34
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Unique Release name for re-issues

Considering the recommendation to *not* duplicate releases with the same track list wouldn't it make sense to prefer using the earliest know version for the release name? There are numerous examples of a later re-issue entered first (CD version of an earlier LP release) where the later release name is used. I would suggest it be preferable to change it to the earlier one. Here's one example:

Bellamy Brothers Greatest Hits was first released in 1982 on vinyl. It was not titled Volume I. The same track list was re-issued in 1995 on CD and titled Greatest Hits, Volume 1. Before I change the title and remove Volume I (which makes perfect sense to me) I wanted to get clarification. Also, should that preference (whatever it is) be reflected in the style guidelines somewhere (unless I'm missing something).

Regards,
Rob......................

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Rob Keeney | 1 May 2010 20:52
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How to enter sub-track information

The ELP live album, Welcome Back my Friends... has two tracks that each have 'sub-tracks' (for lack of a better description). It is not clear from the guidelines how to include that information into the track titles. My suggestion on track 4 of this release would be:

Tarkus: 1. Eruption, 2.Stones of Years, 3.Iconoclast, etc.

This reflects the titling on the album packaging as well (see Wikipedia article also).

Then on disc 2, track 4:

Karn Evil 9: 1. 1st Impression, 2. 2nd Impression, 3. 3rd Impression

What are your thoughts?

Rob.....................

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Rob Keeney | 1 May 2010 20:58
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Re: How to enter sub-track information

Maybe medley style is appropriate? Hence:

Tarkus: Eruption / Stones of Years / Iconoclast / ...
Karn Evil 9: 1st Impression / 2nd Impression / ...

Rob.........

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Rob Keeney <pianissimo84-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
The ELP live album, Welcome Back my Friends... has two tracks that each have 'sub-tracks' (for lack of a better description). It is not clear from the guidelines how to include that information into the track titles. My suggestion on track 4 of this release would be:

Tarkus: 1. Eruption, 2.Stones of Years, 3.Iconoclast, etc.

This reflects the titling on the album packaging as well (see Wikipedia article also).

Then on disc 2, track 4:

Karn Evil 9: 1. 1st Impression, 2. 2nd Impression, 3. 3rd Impression

What are your thoughts?

Rob.....................


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Brian Schweitzer | 2 May 2010 00:22
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Re: Unique Release name for re-issues

It can also happen the other way; murdos and I've run into this in Vladimir Cosma today, where a 1992 series of 23 releases duplicates several standalone releases which were first released as standalone releases both before but also in some cases *after* (2001, 2005, etc) the series release.  Ie, the series release, in some cases, was the initial release.  He's put in edits to merge them all to the series, whereas my point view is that the same concept as box sets should apply here; namely, that the two are only identical if the release title also would be the same in both cases.  In your case, I'd suggest that the release title ought to not be changed, if it is correct for those REs; I'd suggest adding a separate near-identical release with the other release title.  Esp as these will be split to different releases within the same RG in NGS anyhow, it seems backwards to merge them now, only for them to be later re-split, but now with some REs not having the correct release title.

Brian

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Rob Keeney <pianissimo84-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Considering the recommendation to *not* duplicate releases with the same track list wouldn't it make sense to prefer using the earliest know version for the release name? There are numerous examples of a later re-issue entered first (CD version of an earlier LP release) where the later release name is used. I would suggest it be preferable to change it to the earlier one. Here's one example:

Bellamy Brothers Greatest Hits was first released in 1982 on vinyl. It was not titled Volume I. The same track list was re-issued in 1995 on CD and titled Greatest Hits, Volume 1. Before I change the title and remove Volume I (which makes perfect sense to me) I wanted to get clarification. Also, should that preference (whatever it is) be reflected in the style guidelines somewhere (unless I'm missing something).

Regards,
Rob......................

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Aurélien Mino | 2 May 2010 00:34
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Re: Unique Release name for re-issues

On 02/05/2010 00:22, Brian Schweitzer wrote:
> [...] Esp as these will be split to different releases within the same 
> RG in NGS anyhow, it seems backwards to merge them now, only for them 
> to be later re-split, but now with some REs not having the correct 
> release title.
On the contrary.

When merging before NGS migration, you're making sure that both NGS 
releases will share the same tracklist object, and thus you'll have only 
one set of recordings shared between both NGS releases.
The only things left post NGS is to retitle the release (and re-arrange 
release-groups if needed). I personally use a "NGS TODO: XXX" release 
annotation for that purpose.

I'd much rather deal with retitling release than merging recordings post 
NGS.

- Aurélien
Brian Schweitzer | 2 May 2010 02:00
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Re: Unique Release name for re-issues



On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Aurélien Mino <a.mino <at> free.fr> wrote:
On 02/05/2010 00:22, Brian Schweitzer wrote:
> [...] Esp as these will be split to different releases within the same
> RG in NGS anyhow, it seems backwards to merge them now, only for them
> to be later re-split, but now with some REs not having the correct
> release title.
On the contrary.

When merging before NGS migration, you're making sure that both NGS
releases will share the same tracklist object, and thus you'll have only
one set of recordings shared between both NGS releases.
The only things left post NGS is to retitle the release (and re-arrange
release-groups if needed). I personally use a "NGS TODO: XXX" release
annotation for that purpose.

I'd much rather deal with retitling release than merging recordings post
NGS.

The same effect is possible with use of the Earliest Release Relationship Type to link the tracklists, without the negative effect of having releases which are mis-titled.  I'd much rather not have to deal with merging recordings *or* finding and renaming ones which are mistitled, post-NGS.  :D

Brian

PS: re the 'NGS:TODO' annotation, I guess that kind of thing works, but it would be one of those that might even be better handled by tags, except for the problem that tags have to be removed by the person who applied them.  This would be another type of thing where 'communal tags' would be helpful to have.
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Rob Keeney | 2 May 2010 05:33
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Re: Unique Release name for re-issues

But that's not what the guidelines say:

What Defines a Unique Release

This guideline suggests strongly (as I read it) to *not* create duplicate releases that contain the same track list and only differ slightly in the release title. Now, admittedly, I haven't followed the NGS discussion to understand how that will change things. I don't think it wise to go against the current guidelines simply because the future guidelines will be different.

Rob...................

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Brian Schweitzer <brian.brianschweitzer-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
It can also happen the other way; murdos and I've run into this in Vladimir Cosma today, where a 1992 series of 23 releases duplicates several standalone releases which were first released as standalone releases both before but also in some cases *after* (2001, 2005, etc) the series release.  Ie, the series release, in some cases, was the initial release.  He's put in edits to merge them all to the series, whereas my point view is that the same concept as box sets should apply here; namely, that the two are only identical if the release title also would be the same in both cases.  In your case, I'd suggest that the release title ought to not be changed, if it is correct for those REs; I'd suggest adding a separate near-identical release with the other release title.  Esp as these will be split to different releases within the same RG in NGS anyhow, it seems backwards to merge them now, only for them to be later re-split, but now with some REs not having the correct release title.

Brian

On Sat, May 1, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Rob Keeney <pianissimo84-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> wrote:
Considering the recommendation to *not* duplicate releases with the same track list wouldn't it make sense to prefer using the earliest know version for the release name? There are numerous examples of a later re-issue entered first (CD version of an earlier LP release) where the later release name is used. I would suggest it be preferable to change it to the earlier one. Here's one example:

Bellamy Brothers Greatest Hits was first released in 1982 on vinyl. It was not titled Volume I. The same track list was re-issued in 1995 on CD and titled Greatest Hits, Volume 1. Before I change the title and remove Volume I (which makes perfect sense to me) I wanted to get clarification. Also, should that preference (whatever it is) be reflected in the style guidelines somewhere (unless I'm missing something).

Regards,
Rob......................

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