Chad Wilson | 1 Jan 2008 08:43
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level?

Barry Platt wrote:
> Following the recent server upgrade, it is very easy to add such ARs to
> multiple tracks on a release in a single operation.  So now an editor is
> faced with two possibilities when adding ARs to a release - assign to
> the release level, or assign to tracks.  My understanding is that the
> former means the AR is relevant to all tracks on the release, so
> assigning release-level ARs is considered equivalent to assigning to all
> tracks.  
I think we need to nix this assumption completely. I believe it to be 
completely incorrect and dangerous to assume this. While Picard does 
exhibit this behaviour in the way it propagates release ARs to tracks, I 
(and many other editors) wholely object to the notion that this is what 
should be understood by a release level AR in the DB.

It should mean "applies to the release, or possibly some of the tracks 
on the release, maybe all". Definitely NOT implicitly assumed to apply 
to all. If people add them to the release level when they mean "all 
tracks"; it's no big deal as removing the assumption doesn't preclude it 
from being true that it applies to all tracks.

If we were to assume applied to all it completely removes the 
possibility of using release-level ARs in the way they are often 
credited on releases (as you give an example of), where it doesn't 
always explicitly say that /every/ track is produced or composed by 
someone. Sometimes a release says "Produced by Artist A and Artist B", 
where in reality tracks say 1-5 and 7 were produced by A and tracks 6 
and 9-10 were produced by B. This information may not be known at time 
of edition, but if it's credited at release level, I think we should be 
able to represent it in a structure way until the truth is known.

(Continue reading)

Brian Schweitzer | 2 Jan 2008 03:40
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

Ok, we just had a lengthy debate on this in IRC, which has, I think, helped to clarify the issue.
( starts around http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2008/2008-01/2008-01-02.html#T00-42-16-600403 )

Essentially, I think this whole thing falls into one of two views.  Problem is, those two views are 100% incompatible.  I think we REALLY do need to decide that one or the other is the viewpoint we're using, however, as this is causing more and move confusion as to which ARs people should be adding, which ARs are correct or wrong, etc.

Viewpoint 1:
   A release is the sum of its tracks.
   An AR added at the release level is valid if and only if it applies to all tracks.
   ---------------------------------------------------
   Thus: ARs can therefore not be "vague" or "fuzzy" - they either are factually correct for the entire release, or they should be in annotations until someone else can update them.


Viewpoint 2:
   A release and its tracks are two entirely separate considerations.
   An AR added at the release level is valid if is says something about at least one of the tracks on the release.
   ---------------------------------------------------
    Thus: ARs at the release level can be "fuzzy" - if you know someone played alto sax on some track, but you don't know which track(s), then it can be added at the release level for someone later (who has better info) to move to the proper track(s).


Now I personally have always thought akin to #1.  A release is, to me, essentially a collection of specific versions of tracks in some particular order on various forms of media.  Thus having release level ARs be those which applied to all tracks made sense, especially before we had batch AR ability, when actually adding the same AR to every single track took forever.

However, perhaps it is time to use the 2nd viewpoint instead, now that we can do ARs in batch.  It was argued to me in IRC that this at least gets the release to show under the artist, rather than trapping the data in an annotation, when the editor does only have fuzzy info.  This kind of makes sense to me.

HOWEVER!  If we're really going to interpret release level ARs this way, allowing for people to add release level ARs for "I know John played on some tracks on this album, but I don't know which particular tracks", let's say so!

Right now, half of us are voting against such ARs, while the other half of us are adding them.  Right now, many of us are adding release level ARs, rather than adding those same ARs to every single track, when they DO have the info to be able to say that AR does apply to every single track.

So, if one person is adding "fuzzy" release level ARs, and another person is adding non-fuzzy ARs at the release level, but could add them at the track level, we're left with any given release level AR being of rather low DQ - it *could* apply to the entire release...  or it *could* just be that someone didn't know which tracks to apply it to.

=========================

So I've been somewhat convinced, and I suggest, let's use viewpoint 2 as the official guidance for how to handle ARs:

Proposal:

  Release level ARs are not now or ever to be inherited to tracks. 
  Release level ARs are allowed to be, and always ought to be viewed as "fuzzy". 
  However, track level (and for later, track master ARs) are *never* to be fuzzy. 
  Finally, apply ARs to every track you can, if you have the info - ie: from this point on, if an AR applies to all tracks, it ought to be applied to all tracks, and not just to the release.
 
=========================

(Any time I say AR here I mean performance and production ARs, not the ones that inherently have nothing to do with tracks, such as the coverart AR.)

Brian

(By the way, though the ArtistRoleInheritance wikipage may have been left untouched, this has come up several times in style, users, IRC, the forums and there's at least one lengthy bug ticket discussing it, so I don't think this has at all be "largely ignored" as a whole.)

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Barry Platt | 2 Jan 2008 10:43

Re: [mb-style] Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

Hi -

This is more-or-less the conclusion I was coming to as there's clear
benefit to allowing some kind of "fuzzy" release-level ARs.  Indeed,
this is really why I started this thread as I saw major problems with
the two incompatible approaches that were being used in the DB.

An approach I'd considered suggesting was to add a "fuzzy" boolean on
release-level ARs which could be used to indicate that they shouldn't be
propagated, but that probably complicates the data model with
insufficient benefit.

Brian's suggested approach of considering release-level ARs fuzzy by
default would seem to be the best one, but obviously (as discussed
extensively in IRC) this does mean that many release-level ARs *that
were entered on the understanding that they would be propagated down*
now won't.

There may be some value to implementing a helper UI that allows existing
release-level ARs to be reassigned down to all the tracks, possibly with
some new reports to facilitate identification of such ARs (for example
search for Add Artist-Release AR edits by editor).  Neither of those
things should get in the way of clarifying what we conclude to be the
*correct* way that ARs should be used however.

Regards,
Barry
Olivier | 2 Jan 2008 10:44
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

2008/1/2, Brian Schweitzer <brian.brianschweitzer@...>:
> Ok, we just had a lengthy debate on this in IRC, which has, I think, helped
> to clarify the issue.
> ( starts around
> http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2008/2008-01/2008-01-02.html#T00-42-16-600403
> )
>
> Essentially, I think this whole thing falls into one of two views.  Problem
> is, those two views are 100% incompatible.  I think we REALLY do need to
> decide that one or the other is the viewpoint we're using, however, as this
> is causing more and move confusion as to which ARs people should be adding,
> which ARs are correct or wrong, etc.
>
> Viewpoint 1:
>    A release is the sum of its tracks.
>    An AR added at the release level is valid if and only if it applies to
> all tracks.
>    ---------------------------------------------------
>    Thus: ARs can therefore not be "vague" or "fuzzy" - they either are
> factually correct for the entire release, or they should be in annotations
> until someone else can update them.

A Release is definitely something more than the sum of its tracks IMHO.

>
>
> Viewpoint 2:
>     A release and its tracks are two entirely separate considerations.
>     An AR added at the release level is valid if is says something about at
> least one of the tracks on the release.
>     ---------------------------------------------------
>     Thus: ARs at the release level can be "fuzzy" - if you know someone
> played alto sax on some track, but you don't know which track(s), then it
> can be added at the release level for someone later (who has better info) to
> move to the proper track(s).

Viewpoint 3:
An AR on the release level has an entirely different meaning of the
same AR applied at track level.
Producer A produced the recording sessions that gave track A, B & C
(using the links on the tracks)
Producer B produced the reissue *release* containing A, B & C.

Heriting/propagating either way (from track to release, or from
release to tracks) in such a case just sounds bad to me, as they
really mean two different things.

>
>
> Now I personally have always thought akin to #1.  A release is, to me,
> essentially a collection of specific versions of tracks in some particular
> order on various forms of media.  Thus having release level ARs be those
> which applied to all tracks made sense, especially before we had batch AR
> ability, when actually adding the same AR to every single track took
> forever.

Well, again, it doesn't make any sense to say that Artist A provided
photography for track A...
You (usually) provide photography for a *release* (but maybe this
discussion excluded that AR).
Same goes for the AR "liner notes": usually (semantically) valid for
releases, and shouldn't be propagated to tracks... (because that would
have a different meaning).

>
> However, perhaps it is time to use the 2nd viewpoint instead, now that we
> can do ARs in batch.  It was argued to me in IRC that this at least gets the
> release to show under the artist, rather than trapping the data in an
> annotation, when the editor does only have fuzzy info.  This kind of makes
> sense to me.

I would largely prefer to have such "fuzzy" data into annotation.
If people know only something fuzzy about a release, why would we
desire it to be half-correctly represented in the db?
But I guess this is a matter of how one thinks about the database as a whole.
My own (personal) view is "have it straight or have it in the annotation..."

>
> HOWEVER!  If we're really going to interpret release level ARs this way,
> allowing for people to add release level ARs for "I know John played on some
> tracks on this album, but I don't know which particular tracks", let's say
> so!
>
> Right now, half of us are voting against such ARs, while the other half of
> us are adding them.  Right now, many of us are adding release level ARs,
> rather than adding those same ARs to every single track, when they DO have
> the info to be able to say that AR does apply to every single track.
>
> So, if one person is adding "fuzzy" release level ARs, and another person is
> adding non-fuzzy ARs at the release level, but could add them at the track
> level, we're left with any given release level AR being of rather low DQ -
> it *could* apply to the entire release...  or it *could* just be that
> someone didn't know which tracks to apply it to.
>
> =========================
>
> So I've been somewhat convinced, and I suggest, let's use viewpoint 2 as the
> official guidance for how to handle ARs:
>
> Proposal:
>
>   Release level ARs are not now or ever to be inherited to tracks.
>   Release level ARs are allowed to be, and always ought to be viewed as
> "fuzzy".

I don't agree on that, as explained earlier: some release level AR
(namely producer, can perfectly and entirely make sense applied at the
release level, and not being "fuzzy" - as I said "Artist A produced
for reissue release B").

>   However, track level (and for later, track master ARs) are *never* to be
> fuzzy.
>   Finally, apply ARs to every track you can, if you have the info - ie: from
> this point on, if an AR applies to all tracks, it ought to be applied to all
> tracks, and not just to the release.

I don't agree either (for the same reason above...).

> =========================
>
> (Any time I say AR here I mean performance and production ARs, not the ones
> that inherently have nothing to do with tracks, such as the coverart AR.)

Well, maybe you need to be a bit more specific then. I see a problem
at least with the producer AR - while I agree with your view about
perf and composer ARs (though for the later there are some corner
cases as well - eg: when a "composer" link apply to a work that is
splitted in different tracks for example).

Hope that helps,

- Olivier
Philipp Wolfer | 2 Jan 2008 11:08
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

On Jan 2, 2008 10:44 AM, Olivier <viapanda@...> wrote:
> A Release is definitely something more than the sum of its tracks IMHO.
Agreed

> Well, again, it doesn't make any sense to say that Artist A provided
> photography for track A...
> You (usually) provide photography for a *release* (but maybe this
> discussion excluded that AR).
> Same goes for the AR "liner notes": usually (semantically) valid for
> releases, and shouldn't be propagated to tracks... (because that would
> have a different meaning).

This is what regularly comes up in discussions about this topic. But
IMHO this is irrelevant, as it is clear that there are ARs that are
completely valid on release level and don't apply to individual tracks
(of course this needs to be defined).

But Brian explicitly limited his suggestion to "performance and
production ARs", and for those I think he's absolutely correct. I now
really think there is value in allowing the "fuzzy" ARs on release
level and that viewpoint 2 is the way to go.

--

-- 
Philipp Wolfer
Lauri Watts | 2 Jan 2008 11:10
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

On Jan 2, 2008 10:44 AM, Olivier <viapanda@...> wrote:
> Lots of stuff I agree entirely with.

Every release level AR I have ever entered, and all those I have voted
on to my knowledge, apply to the release as a whole, either all tracks
on it, or for items like graphics, to 'the release' and would be
meaningless if applied to tracks.

The 'put it on release level if we're not sure' makes little sense to
me, I would prefer to see that kind of information in annotations.

--

-- 
Lauri Watts
Olivier | 2 Jan 2008 11:13
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

2008/1/2, Philipp Wolfer <phw@...>:
> On Jan 2, 2008 10:44 AM, Olivier <viapanda@...> wrote:
> > A Release is definitely something more than the sum of its tracks IMHO.
> Agreed
>
> > Well, again, it doesn't make any sense to say that Artist A provided
> > photography for track A...
> > You (usually) provide photography for a *release* (but maybe this
> > discussion excluded that AR).
> > Same goes for the AR "liner notes": usually (semantically) valid for
> > releases, and shouldn't be propagated to tracks... (because that would
> > have a different meaning).
>
> This is what regularly comes up in discussions about this topic. But
> IMHO this is irrelevant, as it is clear that there are ARs that are
> completely valid on release level and don't apply to individual tracks
> (of course this needs to be defined).

Liner notes AR can perfectly apply to track level as well, and there
are cases where there are liners *for the release* by Artist A, and
separate liners for each tracks by artists B, C, ...

>
> But Brian explicitly limited his suggestion to "performance and
> production ARs", and for those I think he's absolutely correct. I now
> really think there is value in allowing the "fuzzy" ARs on release
> level and that viewpoint 2 is the way to go.

The Producer AR is part of the Production ARs I assume :-)
And it pose the same problem as above.
That view just doesn't work for it...
Chris B | 2 Jan 2008 11:20

Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

On 02/01/2008, Brian Schweitzer
<brian.brianschweitzer@...> wrote:
> Ok, we just had a lengthy debate on this in IRC, which has, I think, helped
> to clarify the issue.
> ( starts around
> http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2008/2008-01/2008-01-02.html#T00-42-16-600403
> )
>
> Essentially, I think this whole thing falls into one of two views.  Problem
> is, those two views are 100% incompatible.  I think we REALLY do need to
> decide that one or the other is the viewpoint we're using, however, as this
> is causing more and move confusion as to which ARs people should be adding,
> which ARs are correct or wrong, etc.
>
> Viewpoint 1:
>    A release is the sum of its tracks.
>    An AR added at the release level is valid if and only if it applies to
> all tracks.
>    ---------------------------------------------------
>    Thus: ARs can therefore not be "vague" or "fuzzy" - they either are
> factually correct for the entire release, or they should be in annotations
> until someone else can update them.
>
>
> Viewpoint 2:
>     A release and its tracks are two entirely separate considerations.
>     An AR added at the release level is valid if is says something about at
> least one of the tracks on the release.
>     ---------------------------------------------------
>     Thus: ARs at the release level can be "fuzzy" - if you know someone
> played alto sax on some track, but you don't know which track(s), then it
> can be added at the release level for someone later (who has better info) to
> move to the proper track(s).
>
>
> Now I personally have always thought akin to #1.  A release is, to me,
> essentially a collection of specific versions of tracks in some particular
> order on various forms of media.  Thus having release level ARs be those
> which applied to all tracks made sense, especially before we had batch AR
> ability, when actually adding the same AR to every single track took
> forever.
>
> However, perhaps it is time to use the 2nd viewpoint instead, now that we
> can do ARs in batch.  It was argued to me in IRC that this at least gets the
> release to show under the artist, rather than trapping the data in an
> annotation, when the editor does only have fuzzy info.  This kind of makes
> sense to me.
>
> HOWEVER!  If we're really going to interpret release level ARs this way,
> allowing for people to add release level ARs for "I know John played on some
> tracks on this album, but I don't know which particular tracks", let's say
> so!
>
> Right now, half of us are voting against such ARs, while the other half of
> us are adding them.  Right now, many of us are adding release level ARs,
> rather than adding those same ARs to every single track, when they DO have
> the info to be able to say that AR does apply to every single track.
>
> So, if one person is adding "fuzzy" release level ARs, and another person is
> adding non-fuzzy ARs at the release level, but could add them at the track
> level, we're left with any given release level AR being of rather low DQ -
> it *could* apply to the entire release...  or it *could* just be that
> someone didn't know which tracks to apply it to.
>
> =========================
>
> So I've been somewhat convinced, and I suggest, let's use viewpoint 2 as the
> official guidance for how to handle ARs:
>
> Proposal:
>
>   Release level ARs are not now or ever to be inherited to tracks.
>   Release level ARs are allowed to be, and always ought to be viewed as
> "fuzzy".
>   However, track level (and for later, track master ARs) are *never* to be
> fuzzy.
>   Finally, apply ARs to every track you can, if you have the info - ie: from
> this point on, if an AR applies to all tracks, it ought to be applied to all
> tracks, and not just to the release.

what info could prove that an AR applies to all tracks? if an artist
is given composer credits on a whole release, it's fairly certain they
wrote all the tracks, as that credit has legal implications. however,
any other release-wide credit may be fuzzy or it may not :)

i think what i'm saying is that almost no release wide credits should
be taken to be ARs to be applied to all tracks, if we are saying track
level ARs are 'non fuzzy'. instead we should use inheritance to
display release-specific ARs at a track level, but not duplicate them
down - http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/3029

that is, if a track is on Release Y which has a release-wide credit of
'produced by X', then the track should have a AR shown at the track
level (but not applied to) that it was on a release that has this AR.
"Produced By X (Release Y)" or something like that.

i'm not sure if that is possible to enforce, though. i think in
practice people will take (for example) a release credit of 'produced
by X' as an AR to be applied to all tracks, which is likely not to be
the case.
Barry Platt | 2 Jan 2008 11:34

Re: [mb-style] Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

Olivier <viapanda@...> wrote :

> Viewpoint 3:
> An AR on the release level has an entirely different meaning of the
> same AR applied at track level.
> Producer A produced the recording sessions that gave track A, B & C
> (using the links on the tracks)
> Producer B produced the reissue *release* containing A, B & C.
>
> Heriting/propagating either way (from track to release, or from
> release to tracks) in such a case just sounds bad to me, as they
> really mean two different things.

You're right that the "Produced" AR is a potentially problematic one as
there is a semantic difference between production of a release and
production of a track master.  Part of me even wonders whether these
should actually be separate ARs (or variants).

As it is right now, I don't think we would really have the option of
assigning 'Produced' in a fuzzy sense as we're defining it in this
discussion, as 'Producer' at release level will be assumed to mean
production of the release.  But then, the reason we would *have* to do
this is because the liner notes use in a fuzzy sense themselves.  If
better information comes along later, and we can determine which
producers did track-level production, then those ARs can be implemented
at track level.

Regards,
Barry
Bram van Dijk | 2 Jan 2008 11:39
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Favicon
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Re: Composition/Performer/Production ARs at Release or Track level? - PROPOSAL

I vote for viewpoint 2.

Lots of releases have liner notes like this:
Artist A: vocal, guitar, piano, bass, whatever, some weird percussion 
thingy, and yet a few instruments more
Artist B: another list with a gazillion instruments.

There is usually no way to know which track each specific instruments 
belongs to. Putting this in an annotation loses the information in a way 
(appears on pages stay empty). So, if the release contains credits at a 
release level, we should too IMHO.

This means that we should enter information at the lowest level 
possible. Note that this will also help with the merging of tracks in 
track masters as Luks said in an earlier discussion.

Bram

Chris B schreef:
> On 02/01/2008, Brian Schweitzer
<brian.brianschweitzer@...> wrote:
>   
>> Ok, we just had a lengthy debate on this in IRC, which has, I think, helped
>> to clarify the issue.
>> ( starts around
>> http://chatlogs.musicbrainz.org/2008/2008-01/2008-01-02.html#T00-42-16-600403
>> )
>>
>> Essentially, I think this whole thing falls into one of two views.  Problem
>> is, those two views are 100% incompatible.  I think we REALLY do need to
>> decide that one or the other is the viewpoint we're using, however, as this
>> is causing more and move confusion as to which ARs people should be adding,
>> which ARs are correct or wrong, etc.
>>
>> Viewpoint 1:
>>    A release is the sum of its tracks.
>>    An AR added at the release level is valid if and only if it applies to
>> all tracks.
>>    ---------------------------------------------------
>>    Thus: ARs can therefore not be "vague" or "fuzzy" - they either are
>> factually correct for the entire release, or they should be in annotations
>> until someone else can update them.
>>
>>
>> Viewpoint 2:
>>     A release and its tracks are two entirely separate considerations.
>>     An AR added at the release level is valid if is says something about at
>> least one of the tracks on the release.
>>     ---------------------------------------------------
>>     Thus: ARs at the release level can be "fuzzy" - if you know someone
>> played alto sax on some track, but you don't know which track(s), then it
>> can be added at the release level for someone later (who has better info) to
>> move to the proper track(s).
>>
>>
>> Now I personally have always thought akin to #1.  A release is, to me,
>> essentially a collection of specific versions of tracks in some particular
>> order on various forms of media.  Thus having release level ARs be those
>> which applied to all tracks made sense, especially before we had batch AR
>> ability, when actually adding the same AR to every single track took
>> forever.
>>
>> However, perhaps it is time to use the 2nd viewpoint instead, now that we
>> can do ARs in batch.  It was argued to me in IRC that this at least gets the
>> release to show under the artist, rather than trapping the data in an
>> annotation, when the editor does only have fuzzy info.  This kind of makes
>> sense to me.
>>
>> HOWEVER!  If we're really going to interpret release level ARs this way,
>> allowing for people to add release level ARs for "I know John played on some
>> tracks on this album, but I don't know which particular tracks", let's say
>> so!
>>
>> Right now, half of us are voting against such ARs, while the other half of
>> us are adding them.  Right now, many of us are adding release level ARs,
>> rather than adding those same ARs to every single track, when they DO have
>> the info to be able to say that AR does apply to every single track.
>>
>> So, if one person is adding "fuzzy" release level ARs, and another person is
>> adding non-fuzzy ARs at the release level, but could add them at the track
>> level, we're left with any given release level AR being of rather low DQ -
>> it *could* apply to the entire release...  or it *could* just be that
>> someone didn't know which tracks to apply it to.
>>
>> =========================
>>
>> So I've been somewhat convinced, and I suggest, let's use viewpoint 2 as the
>> official guidance for how to handle ARs:
>>
>> Proposal:
>>
>>   Release level ARs are not now or ever to be inherited to tracks.
>>   Release level ARs are allowed to be, and always ought to be viewed as
>> "fuzzy".
>>   However, track level (and for later, track master ARs) are *never* to be
>> fuzzy.
>>   Finally, apply ARs to every track you can, if you have the info - ie: from
>> this point on, if an AR applies to all tracks, it ought to be applied to all
>> tracks, and not just to the release.
>>     
>
> what info could prove that an AR applies to all tracks? if an artist
> is given composer credits on a whole release, it's fairly certain they
> wrote all the tracks, as that credit has legal implications. however,
> any other release-wide credit may be fuzzy or it may not :)
>
> i think what i'm saying is that almost no release wide credits should
> be taken to be ARs to be applied to all tracks, if we are saying track
> level ARs are 'non fuzzy'. instead we should use inheritance to
> display release-specific ARs at a track level, but not duplicate them
> down - http://bugs.musicbrainz.org/ticket/3029
>
> that is, if a track is on Release Y which has a release-wide credit of
> 'produced by X', then the track should have a AR shown at the track
> level (but not applied to) that it was on a release that has this AR.
> "Produced By X (Release Y)" or something like that.
>
> i'm not sure if that is possible to enforce, though. i think in
> practice people will take (for example) a release credit of 'produced
> by X' as an AR to be applied to all tracks, which is likely not to be
> the case.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Musicbrainz-style mailing list
> Musicbrainz-style@...
> http://lists.musicbrainz.org/mailman/listinfo/musicbrainz-style
>
>
>   

Gmane