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Simon Reinhardt | 21 Dec 2005 20:31
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[mb-style] Vinyl style

Hi!

I feel like we could cast the common handling of vinyl releases into an 
official style guideline.

So to kick off the discussion for a proposal, I have some questions:

* Do we store every side of a vinyl medium as a separate album or both 
as one album object in the database?
After asking in chat the later seems the most common usage and it seems 
ok to me. Also later CD releases of such releases combine all tracks on 
one CD I guess.

* So if we do the later, do we store multiple vinyl media in multiple 
album objects or really all tracks of a vinyl release in one album?
About this there does not seem to be clarity. It was said in chat that 
4x LPs are often stored as one album in the database. An example is 
http://musicbrainz.org/album/e3fff2c2-58be-40e4-ad6c-c01f2e4bab62.html 
(also look at the Discogs entry).

* If we store at least both sides of a vinyl medium in one album, how do 
we designate side separation?
It would be nice to have a standardized format to note this in a line in 
the album annotation. When a vinyl release appeared on CD later, then we 
also need to combine this with the proposed 
http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseAnnotationStyle (that is add this 
line under one release data group).

Simon (Shepard)
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Orion | 21 Dec 2005 20:42

Re: [mb-style] Please add a "civil union/civil partnership" relationship

Steve Wyles wrote:
>> Didn't we agree not to put non musical realationship?
> 
> 
> If that was agreed, I didn't see the discussion and it wasn't 
> communicated to all users.  As other non musical relationship link pairs 
> of a similar type already exist (involved with, married to, has sibling 
> etc), I can't see the reason not to add this.

Relationships to non-musicians, I think he meant.  That's how I always 
understood it too.  So while all the Jackson siblings are in the DB and 
linked with "has sibling" relationships because of their music careers, 
people like Madonna's husband isn't in the database or connected to her 
with a "married to" relationship because he hasn't put out any music.

I have no idea if David Furnish has released any music or not, so I 
can't speak about that case.  I was always under the impression though 
that if he hasn't then we don't both adding him and the relationship. 
No idea if that's official or not though.
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Chris B | 21 Dec 2005 20:53
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

IMO it's all a bit messy until we can specify formats for a release. I think 
we should hold out till then, as it's not going to make a huge amount of 
difference right now, and will probably need reviewing as soon as formats 
are properly handles (however that maybe).
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Simon Reinhardt" <simon.reinhardt@...>
To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <musicbrainz-style@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:31 PM
Subject: [mb-style] Vinyl style

> Hi!
>
> I feel like we could cast the common handling of vinyl releases into an 
> official style guideline.
>
> So to kick off the discussion for a proposal, I have some questions:
>
> * Do we store every side of a vinyl medium as a separate album or both as 
> one album object in the database?
> After asking in chat the later seems the most common usage and it seems ok 
> to me. Also later CD releases of such releases combine all tracks on one 
> CD I guess.
>
> * So if we do the later, do we store multiple vinyl media in multiple 
> album objects or really all tracks of a vinyl release in one album?
> About this there does not seem to be clarity. It was said in chat that 4x 
> LPs are often stored as one album in the database. An example is 
> http://musicbrainz.org/album/e3fff2c2-58be-40e4-ad6c-c01f2e4bab62.html 
> (also look at the Discogs entry).
>
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999 | 21 Dec 2005 22:12
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

Chris B wrote:
> IMO it's all a bit messy until we can specify formats for a release. I 
> think we should hold out till then, as it's not going to make a huge 
> amount of difference right now, and will probably need reviewing as soon 
> as formats are properly handles (however that maybe).
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Reinhardt" 
> <simon.reinhardt@...>
> To: "MusicBrainz style discussion" <musicbrainz-style@...>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 7:31 PM
> Subject: [mb-style] Vinyl style
> 

I added a lot of vinyl releases and it does make a difference.

>> [...]
>> * Do we store every side of a vinyl medium as a separate album or both 
>> as one album object in the database?
>> After asking in chat the later seems the most common usage and it 
>> seems ok to me. Also later CD releases of such releases combine all 
>> tracks on one CD I guess.

IMHO, one vinyl equals one CD (both sides=1 release). Almost all 
releases in the MBDB are like that.

>> * So if we do the later, do we store multiple vinyl media in multiple 
>> album objects or really all tracks of a vinyl release in one album?
>> About this there does not seem to be clarity. It was said in chat that 
>> 4x LPs are often stored as one album in the database. An example is 
>> http://musicbrainz.org/album/e3fff2c2-58be-40e4-ad6c-c01f2e4bab62.html 
>> (also look at the Discogs entry).
(Continue reading)

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Chris B | 21 Dec 2005 22:23
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "999" <9.9.9@...>
To: "Chris B" <chris.bransden@...>; "MusicBrainz style
discussion" 
<musicbrainz-style@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

> If 2x LPs "are often stored as one album in the database", I thinnk they 
> are often stored wrong. The album you mentioned should be "Universal 
> Indicator Green (disc 1)" - "Universal Indicator Green (disc 3)" in my 
> opinion.

I agree - that's how I've always done it to (I've submitted a lot of vinyl 
to!) - 2xLPs are 'double albums' and often have a 2 distinct parts. it just 
makes sense to have them as 2 entities, same with other iterations.

but yeah i don't really think there's much use putting a style guideline to 
it because none of the logic makes much sense under our current system - 
however we do it's gonna look wrong until we deal with formats IMO.

ps for some reason when i reply to you it automatically puts your email in 
the 'to:' field, and not the style mailing list address. luckily i spotted 
it :) might be my client - the lovely outlook express
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Thomas Tholén | 21 Dec 2005 22:52
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

> >> * Do we store every side of a vinyl medium as a separate album or both
> >> as one album object in the database?
> >> After asking in chat the later seems the most common usage and it
> >> seems ok to me. Also later CD releases of such releases combine all
> >> tracks on one CD I guess.
>
> IMHO, one vinyl equals one CD (both sides=1 release). Almost all
> releases in the MBDB are like that.

Agree.

> >> * So if we do the later, do we store multiple vinyl media in multiple
> >> album objects or really all tracks of a vinyl release in one album?
> >> About this there does not seem to be clarity. It was said in chat that
> >> 4x LPs are often stored as one album in the database. An example is
> >> http://musicbrainz.org/album/e3fff2c2-58be-40e4-ad6c-c01f2e4bab62.html
> >> (also look at the Discogs entry).
>
> If 2x LPs "are often stored as one album in the database", I thinnk they
> are often stored wrong. The album you mentioned should be "Universal
> Indicator Green (disc 1)" - "Universal Indicator Green (disc 3)" in my
> opinion.

Strongly agree. The behaviour should differ as little as possible between
the different formats.

//[bnw]
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Decklin Foster | 22 Dec 2005 01:30
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

999 writes:

> IMHO, one vinyl equals one CD (both sides=1 release). Almost all 
> releases in the MBDB are like that.

Owing to the different lengths of 33 1/3 LPs and CDs, many 2xLPs have
been released on one CD and 3xLPs on 2 CDs. (I'm not sure how common
this is overall, but it seems to hold for most of my collection...)

What do we want here? I don't have a particularly strong preference
either way.

(Probably, a far more generalized solution would be preferable, but,
well.)

--

-- 
things change.
decklin@...
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Chris B | 22 Dec 2005 01:48
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Decklin Foster" <decklin@...>
To: <musicbrainz-style@...>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:30 AM
Subject: Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

> 999 writes:
>
>> IMHO, one vinyl equals one CD (both sides=1 release). Almost all
>> releases in the MBDB are like that.
>
> Owing to the different lengths of 33 1/3 LPs and CDs, many 2xLPs have
> been released on one CD and 3xLPs on 2 CDs. (I'm not sure how common
> this is overall, but it seems to hold for most of my collection...)

true. 1 side of vinyl = ~20-25 mins max so generally the total is under 72 
mins. i know of some exceptions, plus some artists that still split up the 
release to 2 CDs because they want to keep the thematic seperation of the 2. 
seems a lot of artists still 'design' albums with how they will play out on 
vinyl in mind.

> What do we want here? I don't have a particularly strong preference
> either way.
>
> (Probably, a far more generalized solution would be preferable, but,
> well.)

my logic was that one 'disc' in MBz could equate to one peice of media (1 
LP, 1 tape, etc). i think the useage of 'disc' falls down now that we don'd 
just deal with CDs (yes i know vinyl comes on 'discs' but you know what i
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Nikki | 22 Dec 2005 03:25
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Re: [mb-style] Vinyl style

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 10:12:58PM +0100, 999 wrote:
> IMHO, one vinyl equals one CD (both sides=1 release). Almost all releases
> in the MBDB are like that.

Agreed. All the vinyl releases I've added have been just one vinyl, but if
there were more, I would start a new album just like I would for a second
CD, or a second piece of any media.

> >>* If we store at least both sides of a vinyl medium in one album, how
> >>do we designate side separation?  It would be nice to have a
> >>standardized format to note this in a line in the album annotation.

I usually state that it's the vinyl version, and then specify which tracks
are on which side, e.g.:
http://musicbrainz.org/album/426ed514-cf4c-46f8-ab22-195a7a90df46.html
http://musicbrainz.org/album/25e5280b-f837-49a8-bc28-44bc021ff053.html
With the new annotation code on test.mb being able to handle single line
breaks, I would probably modify that so that each side got its own line,
e.g.:
"This is the vinyl version.
Side A: 1-2
Side B: 3-4"

--Nikki
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Björn Krombholz | 22 Dec 2005 06:29
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Re: [mb-style] DVD concert discs

On 12/20/05, Orion <djkc@...> wrote:
> http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/ReleaseTypeRestructuringProposal mentions
> DVDs but only in the context of DVDA discs.
> http://test.musicbrainz.org/album/9235b9c1-7a32-46c9-a8bb-f652fbca46ef.html
> is the disc I added.
[...]
> Style:
> - Do we treat these exactly like other releases?  i.e., should that be
> filed under Live, Official, or left under Other, or?

If there are only the live tracks on the DVD in a defined order it's
simple. Treat the DVD as it was a CD/LP/... release. I prefer to add
(DVD) to the title as a workaround until we are able to specify the
medium type.

See http://musicbrainz.org/album/5fd23df8-0917-4fe3-b946-86f766fc6a53.html
for a short example, the annotation explains the situation.

And of course those official releases are "official" and in your case
"live", because you don't add a home made audio rip to the database,
but the DVD as a release of it's own. Being able to use the data to
tag your audio rips of the DVD is just a side effect of having this
entry in the db.

There is no official guideline, though. But I don't see why this
should be handled differently from any other medium type, meaning I
don't think we need a special guidleline (or better only one that
forbids adding of non-musical related DVDs).

> Other:
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Gmane